Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Picdelamirand-oil

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Mountain storms in Switzerland



Switzerland has purchased F-35 A :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: which are not only degraded by lightning but also risk exploding in flight.
 
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WHOHE

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Mountain storms in Switzerland



Switzerland has purchased F-35 A :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: which are not only degraded by lightning but also risk exploding in flight.
Still believing the lie I see. Well whatever gets you through life knowing that according to you F-35 can't survive lightning yet nations still select the F-35 over Rafail... Gee I wonder what they know about the Rafail that you don't... like maybe Rafail is all show and PR and is not that great as Dassault claims? I mean Dassault had to bribe India, a nation that buys anything with wings, to take their little plane. :)
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Still believing the lie I see. Well whatever gets you through life knowing that according to you F-35 can't survive lightning yet nations still select the F-35 over Rafail... Gee I wonder what they know about the Rafail that you don't... like maybe Rafail is all show and PR and is not that great as Dassault claims? I mean Dassault had to bribe India, a nation that buys anything with wings, to take their little plane. :)

Team USA basketball vs. France score, Tokyo Olympics: French stun Kevin Durant, United States in opening game

 
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sunstersun

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"Much speculation has swirled around the question of the F-35’s electronic warfare and electronic attack capabilities. The Air Force has resolutely refused to discuss any specifics. Yet experts have pointed out that, in its most recent EW/EA roadmap, USAF has failed to mention any plans for a dedicated jamming aircraft. It is a conspicuous omission. O’Bryan certainly couldn’t go into the subject of the fighter’s EW/EA suite in any detail, or the way it might coordinate with specialized aircraft such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System, RC-135 Rivet Joint, E-8 JSTARS, or EA-18G Growler jammer aircraft. He did say, however, that F-35 requirements call for it to go into battle with “no support whatever” from these systems. “I don’t know a pilot alive who wouldn’t want whatever support he can get,” O’Bryan acknowledged. “But the requirements that we were given to build the airplane didn’t have any support functions built in. In other words, we had to find the target, ... penetrate the anti-access [defenses], ... ID the target, and ... destroy it by ourselves.” O’Bryan said the power of the F-35’s EW/EA systems can be inferred from the fact that the Marine Corps “is going to replace its EA-6B [a dedicated jamming aircraft] with the baseline F-35B” with no additional pods or internal systems. Asked about the Air Force’s plans, O’Bryan answered with several rhetorical questions: “Are they investing in a big jammer fleet? Are they buying [EA-18G] Growlers?” Then he said, “There’s a capability here.” O’Bryan went on to say that the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.” The F-35’s “sensitivity” and processing power—a great deal of it automated— coupled with the sensor fusion of internal and offboard systems, give the pilot unprecedented situational awareness as well as the ability to detect, locate, and target specific systems that need to be disrupted.


He can only be talking about the Growler with that better than comment.
 
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SammyBoi

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I mean Dassault had to bribe India, a nation that buys anything with wings, to take their little plane.
Come on, my man, I agree our procurement procedures are crap, doesn't mean you'll sh!t all over us, eh? We never selected the modified Rafale F3R as being 'better' that the F-35. Because we already have a 5(.5)th gen fighter under development (AMCA), that will come online post 2030 and form the bulk of our manned combat airwing. But for now, we did need a highly capable 4.5th gen aircraft, that is somewhat superior to anything that the Pakistanis and Chinese can throw at us, right now. It was never 'Rafale vs F-35' for us, we never wanted a foreign 5th gen stealth aircraft in the first place, especially after the FGFA deal with the Russians fell through, but critically needed capable interim solutions, which were found to be more than fulfilled by the Dassault Rafale. Even that became very messy, until 2016. I guess the Rafale F4.2 will be as capable as the F-35, but I'm a novice, so I won't get into a traditional US vs France fistfight.......
As for the so-called 'Rafale Bribery Case', both my government and the Indian SC and the French (Dassault + Govt.) have dismissed it as being frivolous, and being more of a kind of 'hitjob', against possible follow-on orders.....
 

Lolwa

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Still believing the lie I see. Well whatever gets you through life knowing that according to you F-35 can't survive lightning yet nations still select the F-35 over Rafail... Gee I wonder what they know about the Rafail that you don't... like maybe Rafail is all show and PR and is not that great as Dassault claims? I mean Dassault had to bribe India, a nation that buys anything with wings, to take their little plane. :)
Your f-16's and f-18's failed spectacularly in India. Using India as an example just shows your limited intelligence my American amigo. Also remember I had talked about Lobbying. You are just a bunch of shameless entitled c*nts not only the French you guys also had to bribe. We know how Americans lobby there hardware everywhere from Europe to SoKo..
 

WHOHE

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Your f-16's and f-18's failed spectacularly in India. Using India as an example just shows your limited intelligence my American amigo. Also remember I had talked about Lobbying. You are just a bunch of shameless entitled c*nts not only the French you guys also had to bribe. We know how Americans lobby there hardware everywhere from Europe to SoKo..
Lol. F-16 lost due to politics and not wanting to fly the same fighter that Pakistan flies including same weapons. It also doesn't understand net-centric warfare which the F-16 and F-18 was going to have.

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The moment India is offered the same equipment as Pakistan, you pretty much know it’s going to be rejected. Although, India had no hesitation buying the same manufacturer’s C-130 transport aircraft, which Pakistan also operates. However, the IAF, instead of looking at how its aircraft perform in combat situations, seems to be obsessed about fitting them with one particular missile: the European Meteor. The Meteor missile’s long range outclasses the F-16’s primary long-range air-to air weapon, the AMRAAM.

It is in fact a tribute to the F-16’s potency that the IAF wants to avoid engaging it in a dogfight and would prefer to take it out at longer ranges. In effect, it wasn’t the F-16 that irritated the IAF so much as it was the AMRAAM – after all, no matter how advanced an F-16 India was being offered, if the missiles were going to be the same as Pakistan’s (AMRAAM), the electronics differential of the launch platform wasn’t going to be much use to India.

To counter this perception, LM had a clear case that the F-16 being sold to India (the Block 70 variant, since renamed F-21) was a whole different beast from the Block 50 that Pakistan has. Beyond the superficial exterior resemblance, there’s about 40 per cent difference in terms of equipment; and the electronics derive much from the F-35’s heavily network centric architecture. As such, the F-21s are a generation ahead from anything on Pakistan’s F-16 that could be better in terms of being able to see further, ‘talk to’ other networked assets, and jam enemy frequencies better. So, even if the F-21 and F-16 use the same missile, the F-21 can detect its enemy faster and shoot first and more accurately.


Sadly, given the hodgepodge of equipment the IAF operates, almost none of which talk to each other, the IAF simply doesn’t understand networked warfare, nor does it care. Stuck in the 1980s’ mindset, the IAF still believes in kinetics while the rest of the world has moved towards electronics. The simplest explanation for this is the scene from Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark, where an Arab swordsman comes around flaunting his sword skills and Indy simply shoots him with a revolver. Here, the IAF is the Arab swordsman, who thinks a better sword could have won him the battle, instead of transitioning to a revolver; Lockheed Martin is the revolver salesman, who futilely tries arguing with the swordsman to give up his sword for the revolver.

Also...
There are merits and demerits to purchasing US aircraft; while these aircraft are cheaper than the other European manufactured aircraft in the fray, there are many limitations imposed by US laws and regulations governing export of sensitive technologies that reduce the capabilities of the aircraft on offer. While the US says it is willing to ensure that these aircraft come with the latest technologies, this is contingent on India signing a number of agreements, something the Indian government is unwilling to do, since they contain clauses that would impinge on our strategic autonomy. Problems with earlier purchases of weapons arising out of such clauses also raise questions of the reliability of the US as an arms supplier. These issues would have to be settled before India can go in for purchases.
Dassault gives away its planes even paying nations like India to buy their planes.
 

Lolwa

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Lol. F-16 lost due to politics and not wanting to fly the same fighter that Pakistan flies including same weapons. It also doesn't understand net-centric warfare which the F-16 and F-18 was going to have.

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The moment India is offered the same equipment as Pakistan, you pretty much know it’s going to be rejected. Although, India had no hesitation buying the same manufacturer’s C-130 transport aircraft, which Pakistan also operates. However, the IAF, instead of looking at how its aircraft perform in combat situations, seems to be obsessed about fitting them with one particular missile: the European Meteor. The Meteor missile’s long range outclasses the F-16’s primary long-range air-to air weapon, the AMRAAM.

It is in fact a tribute to the F-16’s potency that the IAF wants to avoid engaging it in a dogfight and would prefer to take it out at longer ranges. In effect, it wasn’t the F-16 that irritated the IAF so much as it was the AMRAAM – after all, no matter how advanced an F-16 India was being offered, if the missiles were going to be the same as Pakistan’s (AMRAAM), the electronics differential of the launch platform wasn’t going to be much use to India.

To counter this perception, LM had a clear case that the F-16 being sold to India (the Block 70 variant, since renamed F-21) was a whole different beast from the Block 50 that Pakistan has. Beyond the superficial exterior resemblance, there’s about 40 per cent difference in terms of equipment; and the electronics derive much from the F-35’s heavily network centric architecture. As such, the F-21s are a generation ahead from anything on Pakistan’s F-16 that could be better in terms of being able to see further, ‘talk to’ other networked assets, and jam enemy frequencies better. So, even if the F-21 and F-16 use the same missile, the F-21 can detect its enemy faster and shoot first and more accurately.


Sadly, given the hodgepodge of equipment the IAF operates, almost none of which talk to each other, the IAF simply doesn’t understand networked warfare, nor does it care. Stuck in the 1980s’ mindset, the IAF still believes in kinetics while the rest of the world has moved towards electronics. The simplest explanation for this is the scene from Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark, where an Arab swordsman comes around flaunting his sword skills and Indy simply shoots him with a revolver. Here, the IAF is the Arab swordsman, who thinks a better sword could have won him the battle, instead of transitioning to a revolver; Lockheed Martin is the revolver salesman, who futilely tries arguing with the swordsman to give up his sword for the revolver.

Also...

Dassault gives away its planes even paying nations like India to buy their planes.
Bruh Our mig 21 took out Pakistani f16 with an r73 no less. It's essentially in wvr we will absolutely destroy the f16 bombtrucks..
The meteor is for China not Pakistan lmao...
 
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WHOHE

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Bruh Our mig 21 took out Pakistani f16 with an r73 no less. It's essentially in wvr we will absolutely destroy the f16 bombtrucks..
The meteor is for China not Pakistan lmao...
Sure it did.... and the sky is green too, right? US and LM already did a count and no F-16 is missing in Pakistan if anything the US didn't like the fact that their Vipers were used for offensive purposes and gave Pakistan a slap on the hand.

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IAF Did Not Shoot Down Pak F-16 in Balakot Aftermath, Says US Scholar Christine Fair​

Fair, whose work on Pakistan is frequently cited by the Indian side, took on former air chief BS Dhanoa, saying the IAF narrative is not based on an empirical body of facts but dictated more by “things deployed by politicians to win elections".

-The controversy flared up when a Foreign Policy article stated that the Pentagon had accounted for all of Pakistan’s F-16 jets. This report, based on anonymous statements by two U.S. Defense Department officials, contradicted the Indian air force’s (IAF) narrative of the dogfight. The IAF claims an Indian pilot shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter plane before a Pakistani missile took down his own third-generation MiG-21 warplane.

Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.​


Stop listening to butt hurt Indian media and politicians. No viper was shot down and that is a fact.
 

_Anonymous_

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Stop listening to butt hurt Indian media and politicians. No viper was shot down and that is a fact
Your pain is well understood & empathised with . But IAF has had the nasty reputation of shooting prized assets of the PAF with pea shooters viz the Gnats were known as Sabre slayers . PAF initially refused to admit to the losses with the US being even more mortified but had to admit to it once the evidence was made public qualifying it with a refusal to believe that it was the Gnats which it did it once evidence to that effect was furnished as well. As of now only the numbers shot down in 1965 & 1971 are disputed. Deja Vu ?

Give it time & the truth will be out just as everything concerned with Pakistan usually is . All good things to those who wait.

Regarding why India didn't opt for the F-16 or the F-21s , apart from the reasons you've provided there's virtually no scope for any upgradation of these antiquated planes (which the IAF intends to deploy well into the 2050's) unlike the roadmap provided by the Rafales.

In any case the F-16 / F-21 doesn't compare too well with either the Rafales or the Eurofighters or even the Gripens in the IAF's opinion. Sorry , old chap that's just the way it is.

Back in the day , in the 1980s the US tried their utmost to palm off the Northtrop F-20 Tiger Shark which involved fairly aggressive marketing by the Pentagon , US State Dpt & the Reagan administration till they were politely told by the IAF & Indian bureaucrats & politicians to shove it up theirs . This campaign by LM for the F-16 / F-21 is on identical lines though not as aggressive.


Besides let's face it , the F-16 / F-21 is soon expected to be replaced by the USAF itself with a quasi 4.5 Gen jet being developed under the King Snake project - the F-86 . So much for your F-35 Lightening II . Perhaps you ought to ask Pentagon why isn't the F-35 good enough to replace the F-16's & if the future of military aviation is in your esteemed opinion in 5th Gen & beyond jets particularly given that the cost / jet has plummeted along with economical opex & maintenance costs as you've so capably demonstrated out here , why should this move by the USAF not be seen as regressive going by your metrics.

All this & more could be countered in a much better manner than myself by our in-house optimist who rarely needs a second invitation for an exposition & is extremely loquacious
( wonder when he isn't ) when on song & anything but taciturn but I suspect you've intimidated him successfully.
 
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Saaho

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Still believing the lie I see. Well whatever gets you through life knowing that according to you F-35 can't survive lightning yet nations still select the F-35 over Rafail... Gee I wonder what they know about the Rafail that you don't... like maybe Rafail is all show and PR and is not that great as Dassault claims? I mean Dassault had to bribe India, a nation that buys anything with wings, to take their little plane. :)
F-35 was never offered to India. Infact, F-16 was offered with F-35 as a carrot dangling. India with no experience of operating American fighters what so ever was never a good fit to buy a F-35 in the first place. All F-35 operators currently are former operators of older US platforms. Besides, if India were to procure S-400 (like we did), the question of India getting F-35 would have never arrived. I mean just imagine, India were denied F-35 deliveries AFTER making all the payments to USA. It has happened in the past with other US allies.

In the remaining planes, Rafale was the top most choice. How do F-35 and Rafale stack against each other? Well I expect F-35 to out perform Rafale but then I also expect more strings and more cost attached with F-35.
 

WHOHE

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@WHOHE
Really? A hindi news outlet? You're gonna have to do better than that son because notice no name is given of this so-called "DOD spokesman" and the claim from this unnamed spokesman is they are unaware that a count was taken.

Look I get it it hurts knowing that Pakistan got the better of youz during this air war but you're going to have to get over it and move on.

Can't hide something like this from US and other western media that would love to report that a US made fighter was shot down unfortunately for you indians it didn't happen.
 

WHOHE

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Here's what an Italian - ex Italian AF & an aeronautical engineer thinks of the F-35 , TEEHEE . @WHOHE
Wow. An ex-Italian that has no access to the F-35's capabilities is giving his opinion and ignorant dopes like you are buying it? Noooo really?

Here are what pilots who fly the F-35 and are in the know think...
Teehee.

This is the reason nations buy the F-35 they don't listen to the noise/opinions of losers who have no access to the F-35's classified capabilities and are only believed by fools who are just as clueless.
F-35 was never offered to India. Infact, F-16 was offered with F-35 as a carrot dangling. India with no experience of operating American fighters what so ever was never a good fit to buy a F-35 in the first place. All F-35 operators currently are former operators of older US platforms. Besides, if India were to procure S-400 (like we did), the question of India getting F-35 would have never arrived. I mean just imagine, India were denied F-35 deliveries AFTER making all the payments to USA. It has happened in the past with other US allies.

In the remaining planes, Rafale was the top most choice. How do F-35 and Rafale stack against each other? Well I expect F-35 to out perform Rafale but then I also expect more strings and more cost attached with F-35.
I know the F-35 was not offered to India yet Dassault for some reason decided it still needed to bribe Indian politicians to get them to buy the Rafale... wonder why?
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Wow. An ex-Italian that has no access to the F-35's capabilities is giving his opinion and ignorant dopes like you are buying it? Noooo really?

Here are what pilots who fly the F-35 and are in the know think...
Teehee.

This is the reason nations buy the F-35 they don't listen to the noise/opinions of losers who have no access to the F-35's classified capabilities and are only believed by fools who are just as clueless.
So TEEHEE , if the JSF is the next best thing after the flying Pegasus or even better than it , why's the KingSnake program initiated that too for a 4.5Gen Fighter ? What's wrong with the JSF & more to the point what's wrong with the USAF ?
 

WHOHE

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So TEEHEE , if the JSF is the next best thing after the flying Pegasus or even better than it , why's the KingSnake program initiated that too for a 4.5Gen Fighter ? What's wrong with the JSF & more to the point what's wrong with the USAF ?
Kingsnake? Are you that dense? DOD or congress has not "initiated" any Kingsnake program stop believing articles that are made for gullible people like you.... And there's nothing wrong with F-35 the Swiss just selected the F-35 and next month or by the end of the year Finland will also select the F-35, but ignoramus people like you will continue to pull claims out of your butt no mater how many countries buy the F-35.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Kingsnake? Are you that dense? DOD or congress has not "initiated" any Kingsnake program stop believing articles that are made for gullible people like you.... And there's nothing wrong with F-35 the Swiss just selected the F-35 and next month or by the end of the year Finland will also select the F-35, but ignoramus people like you will continue to pull claims out of your butt no mater how many countries buy the F-35.
I never claimed the DoD or Congress initiated the King Snake program did I ? Yes the designation as well as the pennant number is coined by the media but the program does exist within the USAF.

My query , for the benefit of dyslexics , which I shall repeat here , is why's it that the USAF has chosen to replace the F-16 with a clean sheet 4.5 Gen design instead of persisting with the F-35 as originally planned ? What's wrong with the F-35 & more importantly what's wrong with the USAF , TEEHEE ?

For the benefit of autistic dyslexics , here are a few excerpts from a popular US journal :

The Air Force is launching a study into what mix of tactical aircraft the service should field in the 2020s, Air Force Chief of Staff C.Q. Brown recently said at a media event, per Breaking Defense. The study should be complete by 2023.

The Air Force will consider a “clean sheet design” for a new “four-and-a-half-gen or fifth-gen-minus” fighter as a direct replacement for the F-16s currently in service, Brown said.


This is curious news, considering the Air Force has insisted for decades the replacement for the F-16 was the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter. The Air Force has also insisted it would never buy another non-stealthy fighter jet again.



 

sunstersun

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I never claimed the DoD or Congress initiated the King Snake program did I ? Yes the designation as well as the pennant number is coined by the media but the program does exist within the USAF.

My query , for the benefit of dyslexics , which I shall repeat here , is why's it that the USAF has chosen to replace the F-16 with a clean sheet 4.5 Gen design instead of persisting with the F-35 as originally planned ? What's wrong with the F-35 & more importantly what's wrong with the USAF , TEEHEE ?

For the benefit of autistic dyslexics , here are a few excerpts from a popular US journal :

The Air Force is launching a study into what mix of tactical aircraft the service should field in the 2020s, Air Force Chief of Staff C.Q. Brown recently said at a media event, per Breaking Defense. The study should be complete by 2023.

The Air Force will consider a “clean sheet design” for a new “four-and-a-half-gen or fifth-gen-minus” fighter as a direct replacement for the F-16s currently in service, Brown said.


This is curious news, considering the Air Force has insisted for decades the replacement for the F-16 was the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter. The Air Force has also insisted it would never buy another non-stealthy fighter jet again.




I mean consider doesn't mean going to do. It's just standard business tactics threaten a competitor so they drop costs.

Also even if this is true, it doesn't seem surprising as the Digital Series Plan is to pump out way more aircraft types fast. NGAD as the same time as an F-16 replacement does seem weird.