Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Bon Plan

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It must have been a shock for you that your cute little plane that you thought was cheaper and better in performance is actually not, huh? How's your depression have you been able to move on yet? All I gotta say it aint over and you're likely in for another shock when in a few months Finland selects the F-35. Just remember every time the Rafail goes up against the F-35 it loses. Rafail is only good enough for poor-ish nations where the F-35 isn't offered. I've enjoyed reading your friends woes at airdefense.net their denial of Swiss selecting F-35 is delicious.

🐸
Just wait until the deal will be really inked. It may takes time....
 

WHOHE

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Just wait until the deal will be really inked. It may takes time....
Awww you poor froggy relying on false hope to make yourself feel better, eh? Not happening the death nail for Rafail is being hammered but there still may be hope for it in poor nations but that's about it. First world nations that can't afford their own stealth fighter program are going F-35.

France is being surrounded by F-35s and will be fully surrounded in a few years when Germany wakes up and realizes it can't afford its own stealth fighter program even though it's supposedly a multi nation program. They will realized firing the German air force General for wanting the F-35 was a HUGE mistake.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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JUST IN: Watchdog Calls Projected F-35 Sustainment Costs ‘Unaffordable’
7/7/2021
By Meredith Roaten

Department of Defense photo by Kyra Helwick

Projected sustainment costs for the F-35 joint strike fighter are unaffordable, and the problem will only get worse if no further action is taken, the Government Accountability Office warned in a new report released July 7.

Reducing such costs must be a top priority, the watchdog said in its study, “F-35 Sustainment: DoD Needs to Cut Billions in Estimated Costs to Achieve Affordability.”

The joint strike fighter is the largest acquisition project in the history of the Defense Department, with an estimated sustainment price tag of more than $1 trillion over the life of the program. The military plans to buy nearly 2,500 of the jets. The Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy are buying the A, B and C variants of the aircraft, respectively.

“The military services collectively face tens of billions of dollars in sustainment costs that they project will be unaffordable,” according to the report.

The cost to operate the platform can be as high as $38,000 per flying hour, according to estimates from the F-35 Joint Program Office.

Prime contractor Lockheed Martin has invested nearly $400 million dollars to reduce lifecycle sustainment costs, according to Greg Ulmer, the company’s executive vice president for aeronautics.

The GAO warned that affordability will only get worse without additional actions.

If the Air Force doesn’t reduce the estimated annual cost per tail by about 47 percent by 2036, it will exceed its sustainment budget by about $4.4 billion, the study said. The Marine Corps will need to reduce annual sustainment costs per F-35B by 26 percent and the Navy must cut F-35C annual sustainment costs by 24 percent to meet affordability constraints in the mid-2030s, it added.

The F-35 Joint Program Office created a Directorate of Affordability and an Affordability War Room, which reportedly found $68 billion in lifecycle cost savings. However, cost assessment and program evaluation officials told the GAO that they have not verified the savings calculation.

“According to several DoD officials, even if all of the $68 billion in cost avoidance were achieved, that would represent only a fraction of the cost reductions needed to reduce the program’s sustainment costs and achieve the services’ affordability constraints,” the GAO report said.

The Air Force’s situation is becoming increasingly serious, the study said. Service officials told the watchdog that the only options available to meet budget constraints may be to buy fewer platforms or reduce flying hours.

“According to Air Force officials, the steps taken by the Affordability War Room are prudent, but the results have not been sufficient to significantly improve the affordability of the program,” the report said.

Navy and Marine Corps officials told the GAO that they could resolve their cost overrun problems through existing cost saving initiatives.

In addition to affordability, the platforms’ readiness rates concerned the watchdog.

“F-35 mission capable rates — a measure of the readiness of an aircraft fleet — have recently improved, but still fall short of warfighter requirements,” according to the report.

“While the F-35’s mission capable and full mission capable rates have improved over the past two years, these rates remain well below the program’s objectives due to several significant and ongoing sustainment challenges,” the report said.

The Pentagon “partially concurred” with all of the executive-level recommendations from the GAO, which included changes such as requiring the program office to create a plan to achieve affordability and to document changes in program requirements necessary for reductions.

However, Pentagon officials noted that they would likely not be able to implement these changes before the decision to begin full-rate production.

The watchdog discouraged delaying affordability endeavors “given the magnitude of the gap between projected sustainment costs and the services’ affordability constraints.”

The report also urged lawmakers to take action. It recommended Congress require an annual Defense Department update on affordability efforts and make future procurement dependent on the efforts’ progress.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Gap between F-35 Affordability Constraints and Estimated Sustainment Costs in 2036



 
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Bon Plan

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Lol. You should take a trip to memory lane what this moronic GAO organization said about the F-18E.

GAO's recommendations are always ignored and rightfully so.

Look I get that you are absolutely BUTT HURT so much so that you're trying to find anything to make you and your bruised ego feel better but I tell you right now nothing will come of this the Swiss will get their F-35's and more pain will come to you Frogs as the Finns select the F-35 and like the Swiss did how the F-35 is waaaay superior to your Frog fighter not just in performance but in operating cost.

Only advise I got for you froggy's is prepare your cheeks for more hurting. :)
Please stop using Frog or froggy when you are speaking of us.
If not I may replace the "H" by a "W" in your nickname. OK?
 
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WHOHE

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-French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India [sacre bleu]
02 Jul 2021 NewsWires

"A French judge has been tasked with investigating a controversial 2016 multi-billion-dollar sale of Rafale fighter jets to India on “corruption” suspicions, the national financial prosecutors’ office (PNF) said Friday.

The 7.8-billion-euro ($9.3-billion) deal for 36 planes between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault has long been mired in corruption allegations...."

Lulz. Some in here claiming bribes, corruption or political pressure why the Swiss selected the F-35 with no proof yet all this time it was their own that is caught up is scandals. :ROFLMAO:
 

sunstersun

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Man so much of the bias against the F-35 is the idea it's a strike fighter. Uh, many of the assets that make a strike fighter good are very applicable to A2A combat especially in the modern sense. The recent Mig shootdown was technically allowed since they fired from their border out of range.

The ability to penetrate and survive in a contested air space enviroment only means that advantage applies in air to air combat. Combat since the WW2 has always been about combined arms. It's never gonna be just jets vs jets anymore. SAM, AWACS, ships etc.

What good is turning really fast if you just get shot down by a Burke with targeting data from an F-35 like 500 miles away? The Typhoon had this propaganda that it was close to the F-22 in combat because of the agility when in reality the F-22 slapped like 8 F-15 eagles solo and it had nothing to do with agility lol.

It can't be both stealth is useless and the spectra system is awesome. By default the spectra system if it is that good(it's probably not) it would be a lot better on a stealth aircraft.

I dunno what's gonna happen with the S-400, but I hope for India's sake they order the block 4 starting in 2026. It's the only realistic option for a stealth aircraft before 2035.

Japan India Australia USA and Korea having the F-35 would be a strong stand against China for sure.
 

WHOHE

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Man so much of the bias against the F-35 is the idea it's a strike fighter. Uh, many of the assets that make a strike fighter good are very applicable to A2A combat especially in the modern sense. The recent Mig shootdown was technically allowed since they fired from their border out of range.

The ability to penetrate and survive in a contested air space enviroment only means that advantage applies in air to air combat. Combat since the WW2 has always been about combined arms. It's never gonna be just jets vs jets anymore. SAM, AWACS, ships etc.

What good is turning really fast if you just get shot down by a Burke with targeting data from an F-35 like 500 miles away? The Typhoon had this propaganda that it was close to the F-22 in combat because of the agility when in reality the F-22 slapped like 8 F-15 eagles solo and it had nothing to do with agility lol.

It can't be both stealth is useless and the spectra system is awesome. By default the spectra system if it is that good(it's probably not) it would be a lot better on a stealth aircraft.

I dunno what's gonna happen with the S-400, but I hope for India's sake they order the block 4 starting in 2026. It's the only realistic option for a stealth aircraft before 2035.

Japan India Australia USA and Korea having the F-35 would be a strong stand against China for sure.
I'll disagree with you on this... I don't think Spectra is better than the F-15EX EPAWSS or the F-35's AN/ASQ-239.

And I think you're talking about the F-35A taking on 8 F-15Es with APG-82 AESA's and sniper pods that got their butts handed to them a few years ago in Utah.
 

sunstersun

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I'll disagree with you on this... I don't think Spectra is better than the F-15EX EPAWSS or the F-35's AN/ASQ-239.

And I think you're talking about the F-35A taking on 8 F-15Es with APG-82 AESA's and sniper pods that got their butts handed to them a few years ago in Utah.
I did say it's probably not that good. Just for discussions sake if it was hypothetically as good as people claim it would be more effective on a stealth aircraft.
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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I'll disagree with you on this... I don't think Spectra is better than the F-15EX EPAWSS or the F-35's AN/ASQ-239.

And I think you're talking about the F-35A taking on 8 F-15Es with APG-82 AESA's and sniper pods that got their butts handed to them a few years ago in Utah.
EPAWSS is amazing but the f15 getting it's *censored* kicked is more due to its exceptionally huge radar signature. Boeing hasn't even done an RCS improvement on the f15 when it's far more capable than the f18. No wonder f35 will kick it's *censored*. Unironically the Rafale and su57 might be the only fighters presently that can take over the f35 and "win".
 

WHOHE

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I did say it's probably not that good. Just for discussions sake if it was hypothetically as good as people claim it would be more effective on a stealth aircraft.
True that stealth aircraft really don't need powerful EW but it's good to know LM decided to put a very powerful EW second only to Growlers on the F-35.
 

WHOHE

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EPAWSS is amazing but the f15 getting it's *censored* kicked is more due to its exceptionally huge radar signature. Boeing hasn't even done an RCS improvement on the f15 when it's far more capable than the f18. No wonder f35 will kick it's *censored*. Unironically the Rafale and su57 might be the only fighters presently that can take over the f35 and "win".
EPAWSS is a whole new level of EW almost Growler capabilities.
-The jets also exercised the Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, an electronic warfare suite meant to buy the jet more survivability against modern threats. It was the second wargame outing for the EPAWSS, after a Black Flag exercise In December 2020 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.

“We’re still gathering data” on how the EPAWSS performed, but the initial, “anecdotal” results “look promising,” O’Rear said. “In general, it’s looking like it was on track for what we were expecting to see” at Northern Edge.

The exercises pitted about 50 Red team aircraft against a like number of Blue forces, he said. The EPAWSS “was able to integrate in a large force environment with multiple sources of … radio frequency being transmitted across the airspace … It was able to process that.”

In addition to the self-protection features of EPAWSS, a test point was to see if it could help stealthy F-22 and F-35s operating in proximity. The additional jamming “can help the F-35 get closer to the adversary,” O’Rear said. “The more clutter, the more electronic attack you have out there, the more difficult it is for enemy sensors to work through that.” The EPAWSS was able to integrate with “a coordinated electronic attack throughout the force package.”

Rafale or SU-57 have no capability to ever win against the F-35 unless an F-35 pilot goes mental. SU-57 is nothing but all show which is why India bailed on it and Rafale doesn't even come close to the F-35 which is why Swiss selected the F-35. There was a huge gap in points a 95 point gap between F-35 and we're assuming the Rafale. F-35 is in a league of its own with possibly the F-22 near it.

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...The Swiss government pointed up the network capability of the F-35 and how that distinguished the fighter from competing aircraft. “It includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace,” the government said. “The F-35A is able to ensure information superiority; this means pilots benefit from a higher situational awareness in all task areas when compared with the other candidates.”

Cooperation with other aircraft was seen as a winning factor, with the council pointing up “extensive opportunities for operational collaboration and broad access to data and technical resources.” Neighboring Italy flies the F-35, as do other European air forces....

...Why would Switzerland choose this aircraft over its fourth generation rivals?
The Swiss spent time discussing this with the Italians as well, and the Italians have used their aircraft in ways the Swiss will use as well for enhanced ISR/C2 capabilities for expanded homeland defense.

The aircraft has demonstrated superior operational capabilities in a number of recent engagements as well. With the Block IV software, eight F-35s can operate as a wolfpack, and such a capability provides a significant 360 degree defense capability for Switzerland which lives in a neighborhood where spill over from crises can well affect its interests and security.

F-35 is in its own league with no other rival near it.
 
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randomradio

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Man so much of the bias against the F-35 is the idea it's a strike fighter. Uh, many of the assets that make a strike fighter good are very applicable to A2A combat especially in the modern sense. The recent Mig shootdown was technically allowed since they fired from their border out of range.

The ability to penetrate and survive in a contested air space enviroment only means that advantage applies in air to air combat. Combat since the WW2 has always been about combined arms. It's never gonna be just jets vs jets anymore. SAM, AWACS, ships etc.

What good is turning really fast if you just get shot down by a Burke with targeting data from an F-35 like 500 miles away? The Typhoon had this propaganda that it was close to the F-22 in combat because of the agility when in reality the F-22 slapped like 8 F-15 eagles solo and it had nothing to do with agility lol.

Since aircraft operate in a three dimensional space and also influence the fourth dimension due to speed, performance is naturally important. You need the range to get to a battlefield or to stay in the fight, you need climb in order to access the three dimensional space, and you need speed in order to make use of the fourth dimension.

Due to a generation difference or weapons carried, an aircraft with the better avionics and weapons will dominate one which lacks either. For example, if our new Jaguars are equipped with the Derby ER and end up in combat with an F-15 that has expended all its BVR missiles, then it's more than likely that Jaguar will dominate the battle. So the F-22 or F-35 beating a whole bunch of F-15s is nothing special, it's actually expected. The F-15 and F-16 held the same advantage against the F-4 and F-5. Similarly the J-20 or Su-57 can duplicate the results against the F-15 as well.

The real question is how well the F-35 does against the F-22, even with the F-22 carrying older gen hardware. That's the same sort of advantage the J-20 will hold against the F-35. For now the USAF has kept this under wraps.

It can't be both stealth is useless and the spectra system is awesome. By default the spectra system if it is that good(it's probably not) it would be a lot better on a stealth aircraft.

The upcoming Spectra upgrade will take it to the next level, make it more or less competitive with aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 in terms of stealth. It doesn't have to be on par to be competitive. But I suppose the more stealthy you are the better is active cancellation.

I dunno what's gonna happen with the S-400, but I hope for India's sake they order the block 4 starting in 2026. It's the only realistic option for a stealth aircraft before 2035.


Japan India Australia USA and Korea having the F-35 would be a strong stand against China for sure.

Before 2030, yes. Before 2035, no.

What we really need is something between 2022 to 2028-30. It's the gap between the F3R (before 2022) and F4.2 (potentially through MRFA from 2028-30) that's gonna cause problems. It doesn't matter what it is as long as its on par wih the F-35, since the Swiss evals have clearly revealed the F3R is currently inferior to the F-35.
 

WHOHE

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The real question is how well the F-35 does against the F-22, even with the F-22 carrying older gen hardware. That's the same sort of advantage the J-20 will hold against the F-35. For now the USAF has kept this under wraps.
Oy vey. J-20 is better than anything the IAF has but is nowhere near F-35 or F-22 capability. chicoms do not have a Joint-Command style or net-centric fighting force their branches of the military don't fight as one force. They may exercise together for PR purposes but their capabilities as a Joint unit is very limited since their branches of the military are all territorial and the top CCP member Generals in charged of their branches all have equal power that Prez Xi needs to keep happy. The top chicom Army General has no say or power over the Top chicom air force General and all high ranking military officers are CCP members who got their position not by merit but by who they know.

Btw the F-35 was able to jam and F-22 .
-Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers.
 
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