Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Herciv

Active member
Nov 30, 2017
148
148
FRANCE
That
What are you doing? Have you got the right link? "F-35 LIGHTNING II JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER (JSF) LOW RATE INITIAL PRODUCTION (LRIP) LOT 6 ADVANCE ACQUISITION CONTRACT"
That's right
106 billion (Aircraft procurment Airforces) + 31 billion (Navy+USMC) 137 billion US $
That's only for LRIP 6 ..... How many planes ? Don't remember :ROFLMAO:

I have found this also 2.2 billion for 103 F-135 for the lrip10 and (55 f-35) ... That's two f-135 for 1 f-35. That's a lot of sparepart ...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
you can do the math on the 28 vs 38 and still see. Divide and see what you come up with.

Must be how math works in Canada. 28 = 38.

what the US Navy pays is not what anyone else pays, and I've seen Boeing not only lie on costs to us, but to others. They constantly use the US Navy costs and then when it comes to exports the price skyrockets. We have actually had more stable costs and cost models from LM.

No, it doesn't. India was offered the SH for $65M.
🐯Rafales are not super hornets, Canada is not India. A 🐣child's guide🐨 to explaining the obvious, and why using proper models matter🐰

It doesn't matter. What was offered to India will be what's gonna be offered to Canada.

The fact is India's Rafale offer is competitive with F-35 contracts even though the euro is more expensive.

You two should talk. the "real" price jumped 18 - 8 million dollars in just one post from you both. The 78 million there is actually from the US DOD actually too as I look. Can you believe some people still think Super Hornets are between 60-70 million? its almost like they never actually looked. They just repeated what Boeing said over and over like unthinking automatons some of them even repeated this trope in public. So even as The American Defense Dept. told us the actual flyaway was 78 million back in 2016, we still had Canadian officials saying it was only 65 million. How crazy would it be though if people on the internet were still claiming that in 2021? 5 years after it had been debunked? embarrassing really. At least one of you is paying attention.

Can't wait to see what the next post brings oh no!

So which would you believe $65M offered to Canada, the $78M in actual price, which is most likely the product of customisation, or the Danish assumption of $122M?

Are you seriously suggesting the SH costs $122M versus the F-35A's $82M?
 
Last edited:

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India



Is this topic so complex that you're unable to keep up?

The $197M is with $2B in R&D and $1.6B weapons. Remove those and you get $139M.

$14.2B - $2B - $1.6B = 10.6B
Remove $600M for customisation = $10B

10B / 72 = $138.88M

So 72 Rafales for $139M.
 

Spitfire6

Member
Oct 31, 2021
86
75
Canada
Must be how match works in Canada. 28 = 38.

You need to divide the numbers there, bud. Don't twist things now. and remember Denmark is just one example. ;)


India was offered the SH for $65M.
haha us too!!

It doesn't matter. What was offered to India will be what's gonna be offered to Canada.

That makes things easy for us

The fact is India's Rafale offer is competitive with F-35 contracts even though the euro is more expensive.



So which would you believe $65M offered to Canada, the $78M in actual price

take your meds.

which is most likely the product of customisation

That is DOD number for a plain jane US Navy Super Hornet , no customization at all. try to keep up

Are you seriously suggesting the SH costs $122M versus the F-35A's $82M?

Are you seriously suggesting Australia is wrong in their flyaway cost assessment?
 

Spitfire6

Member
Oct 31, 2021
86
75
Canada

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
The SH $65 is a BY $ program base year was 2000. It has little relevance to the current TY$, year it was purchased, then year dollar. You also have to add radar and helmet. These are gov provided. Then pods, the IR in the tank is 7 million. Boeing is presenting the minimum cost they can.

Doesn't make sense. The base price would be from 2006-07, since that's when B2 came into the picture.

For our 24 Super Hornet in 2007, our flyaway cost was $103 million. "Australia 5/2/2007, 24 [planes for] 2474.0. The Program Office has a Foreign Military Sales case with Australia for 24 F/A-18F aircraft. This case was implemented for acquisition and initial support."

Full cost was $6b for 24 or average AU$250

In 2007, AUD was at the same level versus USD as it is today, so the costs are easily transferrable to 2021.

AUD 103M = USD 72M
AUD 6B = USD 4.3B

To top that off, Australia bought 12 SHs and 12 Growlers.

In the Danish contest, they used the Growler's unit price of $122M for the SH instead of $78M. The Growler is obviously more expensive than the SH.

Normally, you'd only need 6 Growlers for 24/7 capability, with 4 constantly available. So 6 Growlers at $122M and 22 SHs at $78M would make $2.4B Add $3B in sustainment, you would get $5.4B, still considerably less than the Danish F-35's $6B. Even if you add 3 more SHs to match F-35's greater avaiability, you'd still come up to $5.8B for 6 Growlers + 25 SHs.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,901
8,019
Bangalore
Making BS claims just comes naturally out of your mouth, huh?

How the hell do you know what the F-35 was made and not made to fight? Where do you get the chutzpah to make such a BS claim for the public to see? When F-35 production model first flew Pak-fa prototype wasn't even finished yet forget the J-20.

Get this through your head the F-35 WAS MADE to fight all potential adversary fighters including Eurocanards which it won't have any trouble removing from the sky.
Please maintain civility. Put forth your point without getting personal.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
You need to divide the numbers there, bud. Don't twist things now. and remember Denmark is just one example. ;)



haha us too!!



That makes things easy for us



take your meds.



That is DOD number for a plain jane US Navy Super Hornet , no customization at all. try to keep up

Wow, dude, it's clear you haven't understood a single thing I said.

Long story short, if the Canadian assessment ends up being fair, and they do not consider capability, the SH will win, quite easily.

Are you seriously suggesting Australia is wrong in their flyaway cost assessment?

You mean you don't know the Australians use something called the "Australian Dollars"? I assure you, it's not the same as "Canadian Dollars" or "US Dollars"? I bet post 2731 would go right over your head.
 

WHOHE

Banned
Jun 23, 2021
432
228
California
Ok. To use a 12 years old message is the only way to be understood by a typical american citizen.
Meteor is not British. They paid the bigger share but : The seeker is a direct derivative of the MICA one. The engine is German, using a french technology. The frame is, indeed, British : a US AMRAAM copy.
Lol. This is your response? You're arguing semantics? Well excuse me for saying Meteor is British since they pay majority of share. Now that that is out of the way how about you respond to the topic?

Meteor came WAYYY before Aim-260 and Meteor was MAJORITY BUILT MISSILE that they wanted on their F-35's.

Does that answer your question, Bub?
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
139
102
Australia
Doesn't make sense. The base price would be from 2006-07, since that's when B2 came into the picture.



In 2007, AUD was at the same level versus USD as it is today, so the costs are easily transferrable to 2021.

AUD 103M = USD 72M
AUD 6B = USD 4.3B

To top that off, Australia bought 12 SHs and 12 Growlers.

In the Danish contest, they used the Growler's unit price of $122M for the SH instead of $78M. The Growler is obviously more expensive than the SH.

Normally, you'd only need 6 Growlers for 24/7 capability, with 4 constantly available. So 6 Growlers at $122M and 22 SHs at $78M would make $2.4B Add $3B in sustainment, you would get $5.4B, still considerably less than the Danish F-35's $6B. Even if you add 3 more SHs to match F-35's greater avaiability, you'd still come up to $5.8B for 6 Growlers + 25 SHs.
I put up the SAR link, I even put up a picture showing BY 2000. Yet you know different :)
In the SAR link is the information about the 24 Australian Super Hornet price they charged. Heck, I even quoted it for you. Still you know different :)
We got 24 S hornet, with some wired for conversion. Then we got 12 growler. Then we got 1 growler, because one caught on fire. So 37 altogether
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spitfire6

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
139
102
Australia
Is this topic so complex that you're unable to keep up?

The $197M is with $2B in R&D and $1.6B weapons. Remove those and you get $139M.

$14.2B - $2B - $1.6B = 10.6B

Remove $600M for customisation = $10B

10B / 72 = $138.88M

So 72 Rafales for $139M.
It obviously is too hard for you. Are you trolling India now?
From this site
2016 NDA Rafale deal breakdown:
-Unit cost (36 F3+* RafalesX$105m*) $3.8b
Weapons (including SCALP ALCM and METEOR BVRAAM) $1.2b
-Base costs (creating world class base level maintenance operations and state of the art climate controlled hardened air shelters) $2b
-IAF specific enhancements ** ( including improved hot an high performance, integration of Israeli systems and weapons) $2b
Total: approx. $9b (or €7.9b or Rs59,630 crore as we know the deal was valued at in 2016).
Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.
It should also be noted that the 2016 was for highly advanced versions of the Rafale (F3+) highly customised to operate in Indian conditions whereas the version being negotiated under the original MMRCA was the F2 version minus any Indian specific upgrades.
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
139
102
Australia

Croatia and France finalize Rafale acquisition​


(Saint-Cloud, France, November 25, 2021) – At a ceremony attended by the President of the French Republic Emmanuel Macron and the Prime Minister of the Croatian Republic Andrej Plenković, the French Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly and the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier signed today in Zagreb, with the Croatian Minister of Defense Mario Banozic, two contracts for the acquisition of 12 Rafale fighters and associated logistics support.

The state-to-state contract mainly covers the transfer of 12 Rafale fighters from the French Air Force along with their equipment, as well as a training service for the Croatian Air Force.

The logistics support contract covers all support resources, including additional spare parts for these aircraft, over a three-year period.

The selection of the Rafale, announced on May 28, after an international tender involving European and American aircraft, reflects its technological and operational superiority, as well as the excellent work done by the team “France” to consolidate its position in the European air forces.

“I am delighted, on behalf of Dassault Aviation and its partners, to be entering into a relationship of trust with Croatia, a European country, and to be writing a new page for the Rafale, which I am certain will give the Croatian Air Force complete satisfaction, while actively contributing to the exercise of Croatia’s national sovereignty,” said Eric Trappier after the signing ceremony.
With 14 for parts and 24 sold secondhand, out of 102 for the AAE, even the French don't want them. That leaves them with 64 Rafales and they aren't buying new ones. If someone buys those, they can get the F-35.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: RISING SUN

WHOHE

Banned
Jun 23, 2021
432
228
California

Croatia and France finalize Rafale acquisition​


(Saint-Cloud, France, November 25, 2021) – At a ceremony attended by the President of the French Republic Emmanuel Macron and the Prime Minister of the Croatian Republic Andrej Plenković, the French Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly and the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier signed today in Zagreb, with the Croatian Minister of Defense Mario Banozic, two contracts for the acquisition of 12 Rafale fighters and associated logistics support.

The state-to-state contract mainly covers the transfer of 12 Rafale fighters from the French Air Force along with their equipment, as well as a training service for the Croatian Air Force.

The logistics support contract covers all support resources, including additional spare parts for these aircraft, over a three-year period.

The selection of the Rafale, announced on May 28, after an international tender involving European and American aircraft, reflects its technological and operational superiority, as well as the excellent work done by the team “France” to consolidate its position in the European air forces.

“I am delighted, on behalf of Dassault Aviation and its partners, to be entering into a relationship of trust with Croatia, a European country, and to be writing a new page for the Rafale, which I am certain will give the Croatian Air Force complete satisfaction, while actively contributing to the exercise of Croatia’s national sovereignty,” said Eric Trappier after the signing ceremony.
Wrong forum. You do know there's a french plane thread, right?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
I put up the SAR link, I even put up a picture showing BY 2000. Yet you know different :)
In the SAR link is the information about the 24 Australian Super Hornet price they charged. Heck, I even quoted it for you. Still you know different :)
We got 24 S hornet, with some wired for conversion. Then we got 12 growler. Then we got 1 growler, because one caught on fire. So 37 altogether

Still doesn't matter. If it's 24 SH, then it came in for $4.3B, or was it $4.6B at the time. Whatever the case, much cheaper than what the DSCA has estimated. Plus the support package is for 10 years.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
It obviously is too hard for you. Are you trolling India now?
From this site
2016 NDA Rafale deal breakdown:
-Unit cost (36 F3+* RafalesX$105m*) $3.8b
Weapons (including SCALP ALCM and METEOR BVRAAM) $1.2b
-Base costs (creating world class base level maintenance operations and state of the art climate controlled hardened air shelters) $2b
-IAF specific enhancements ** ( including improved hot an high performance, integration of Israeli systems and weapons) $2b
Total: approx. $9b (or €7.9b or Rs59,630 crore as we know the deal was valued at in 2016).
Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.
It should also be noted that the 2016 was for highly advanced versions of the Rafale (F3+) highly customised to operate in Indian conditions whereas the version being negotiated under the original MMRCA was the F2 version minus any Indian specific upgrades.

You seem to have skipped out on all your math classes in school. I bet you don't even realise the prices quoted actually makes the Rafale even cheaper than what I've posted.

The contract is for 36 jets. So why don't you provide the breakdown for 72 then? Let's see if you know basic arithmetic.
 

RISING SUN

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
10,421
5,262
For this configuration we don't need to wait for F4, it was already possible with F2 and in any case the fuel fraction is not important, what is important is the autonomy of the aircraft and this is largely better with the Rafale because the F-35 has the aerodynamics of a subsonic guinea fowl and an engine whose specific consumption is less good than that of the M-88.
When someone uses the word "largely", it means person is trying to show something else to hide something else. That's the saying here. Can't comment on Rafale vs F35 technical stuff though.
 

RISING SUN

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
10,421
5,262
Russians are even more pathetic now. They have literally become cheap salesmen and merchandise sellers. This is the state of Russian weapons manufacturing right now
Russian are becoming second tier military salesman despite having technical know-how (to a limited degree now). But that's depending on public domain information. Their checkmate project is going to be used to get finds for investment in other projects once India pulled out of PAKFA.