Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Innominate

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Jun 23, 2021
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What do you think of this :
F35 vs Rafale ?
What point are you trying to make over some everyday guys opinion? Lets go with the facts in detail breaking down french planes capabilities vs F-35.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Only you can believe the words you speak.
What's wrong..? Salty that your article became a nothing burger again?
IsraelF-35EW_AWST.png
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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What the USAF’s ‘four-plus-one’ fighter fleet looks like

BY JAMIE HUNTER | NOVEMBER 19, 2021

The U.S. Air Force (USAF) is completing a Tactical Aircraft (TacAir) study that will inform its fiscal year 2023 budget request and cement a 15-year plan to rationalize the service’s fighter inventory down to a ‘four-plus-one’ fleet. The Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will replace the F-22 as the centerpiece of USAF air superiority, able to operate anywhere at any time. It will be supplemented by the Lockheed Martin F-35A, the new Boeing F-15EX, and upgraded F-16C/Ds. The “plus one” is the A-10 Thunderbolt II, which, although unpopular with USAF leaders, is acknowledged as being the best tool for “low intensity” conflicts — evidenced in recent years in the skies over Syria where the A-10 combined effectively with the unmanned MQ-9 Reaper to provide persistent armed overwatch.

Previous strategic USAF plans called for fighter modernization to include only stealthy, fifth-generation assets. However, that thinking has changed, and the USAF is approaching its future warfighting needs with a desire for a blended fleet with complementary capabilities — high-end stealthy fighters, F-15s that can quickly integrate large weapons, and platforms that provide the necessary affordable mass to meet an exhausting schedule of homeland and global tasks. USAF chief of staff Gen Charles “CQ” Brown recognizes a need for “a mix for the lower-end fight,” along with advanced fifth-generation jets.

Senior officers say the average age of the USAF’s current fighter inventory is 29 years. Some 44 percent of USAF fighters are currently flying beyond their initial service life. Types such as the F-15C should have been retired years ago. Maintenance costs have shot up at twice the rate of inflation, and rationalization of disparate fleets is essential to help bring costs down and keep volumes up. Overhauling one of the world’s largest fleets of fighter aircraft is both complex and costly. For the USAF, fighter jets represent the tip of the spear, but a thorny issue.

Most notably, the F-22 Raptor is not in the USAF’s long-term plan. When Secretary of Defense Robert Gates culled the F-22 Raptor in 2008, he argued that the Raptor was no longer relevant and that just 187 of these advanced fighters was all the USAF needed. It is now acknowledged that the USAF needed far more Raptors, and that Gates’ decision caused a huge knock-on effect that is still being felt today. Moreover, the USAF has not received F-35s at anything like the rate it needs to recapitalize effectively.

The F-22 is monstrously expensive to maintain, and while the small Raptor force is slated for retirement, it will bridge the gap to NGAD with a package of upgrades that will keep it relevant until its successor comes online. In November 2021, the USAF awarded Lockheed Martin a $10.9 billion contract for the Advanced Raptor Enhancement and Sustainment (ARES) program to cover sustainment and modernization over the next decade.

NGAD itself is being designed as a system of systems, with a flying demonstrator already said to be secretly in action. The craft and associated systems are planned to be fielded over the next 10 to 12 years. NGAD is designed to be able to operate over long ranges and meet the array of threats found in the Pacific theater.

The USAF’s headline target is to procure 1,763 F-35As under its program of record, however, there are increasing signs that the actual number will be trimmed — possibly as low as 1,050 aircraft as mooted by planning under the Air Force Warfighting Integration Capability (AFWIC). While initial procurement costs have been reduced towards the $80 million target, operation and support costs of the F-35 remain high. Former assistant secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, Dr. Will Roper, told reporters on Jan. 14, 2021: “I think it’s a long way from being an affordable fighter that we can buy in bulk.” There have also been calls from Gen Brown to not use “high-end” fighter aircraft for the low-end fight.

Development of the F-35 has been slower than the USAF expected, and by now the USAF should have 700 to 1,000 F-35s on the ramp. Instead, it has around 340. One senior official recently said the F-35 is considered to be perfect for the European theater. This could be related to the first F-35As for the U.S. Air Forces in Europe being scheduled to arrive at RAF Lakenheath to join the 48th Fighter Wing before the end of this year. While these jets are replacing F-15Cs, the USAF’s decision to procure the Boeing F-15EX is seen as the most expeditious and cost-effective way to replace the F-15C.

The USAF could buy as many as 144 F-15EX Eagles under an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) contract worth up to $22.89 billion, with the first 80 jets planned over the next five years. The USAF sees the F-15EX as being complementary to the F-35, being a “weapons truck” that is able to integrate new weapons quickly.

Notably, the F-15E is not in the “four-plus-one” plan, suggesting the Strike Eagle, too, could be retired once the last F-15Cs have been recapitalized with F-15EXs. An overall fleet of EXs would make an ideal single fleet replacement for both Eagles and Strike Eagles, suggesting that the initial 144-aircraft buy could well be topped up to allow for the relatively small F-15E fleet to be replaced.

The final part of the plan relates to the F-16, which offers the USAF affordable capacity. One senior officer recently commented that the F-16 is around half the price of the F-35 to operate. The USAF is currently upgrading its “post-Block” F-16s — aircraft of Block 40/42/50/52. With plenty of service life remaining, replacing these jets won’t come any time soon. However, the USAF is already evaluating its options. Two have been publicly voiced, either more F-35s (if the fighters’ through life cost is reduced), or via a new clean sheet fighter.

The USAF is taking one of its most decisive stances on fighter modernization in a decade. The staged process will herald advanced capabilities to concentrate on the most complex battle space, with supporting fleets that can absorb low intensity operations for the foreseeable future. Many eyes will be on that high-end fight, how NGAD will look, and what exotic technologies it will field. As well, how many the Air Force will be able to afford, and how it will ensure NGAD is an aircraft it can operate without busting the budgets.
 

randomradio

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What's wrong..? Salty that your article became a nothing burger again?
View attachment 21901

Dude, how dumb can you get? Your article actually supports my argument.

And, yes, the F-35 class stealth is losing ground to destructive interference, like the one on Rafale. In the future, we will need active cancellation and electrically active materials for stealth, even metamaterials, not just shaping. In just a few more years, the F-35's stealth is gonna be useless. But countries without large aerospace industries like Switzerland and Finland cannot test that. All they can do is compare the F-35 with the F/A-18 and that's the be all and end all of their abilities.

The lesson: Stealth's obviously relevant, but what the F-35 has is not enough.

What the USAF says:
The Air Force’s projected force structure in 2030 is not capable of fighting and winning against this array of potential adversary capabilities
 

Spitfire6

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Spitfire6

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Gotta see that when it actually begins though. The first overhaul isn't until 2030 or so.

There are not going to be many Super Hornet overhaul facilities in the coming decades at all, and unlike the original hornet, there simply isn't much beyond the US Navy. Whoever is stuck with Super Hornets past 2040 is going to be paying big to keep them running and upgraded. Canada won't have anyone to fall back on like they have with the Americans and buying used Australian birds

I wouldn't be so sure.

Under FFCP, Canada plans to purchase 88 new aircraft to replace its CF-188s at a cost of between $15 billion and $19 billion.

At $170-215M, it looks competitive with the F-35.
its not even close to the F-35 cost. The swiss say Super Hornet costs more, the submitted DSCAs for the Swiss and the Finnish have the price higher than F-35, plus we had Boeing already try and sell us Super Hornets and they were massively more expensive to get older aircraft with less future left. That's not "competitive" its a joke for anyone but the "mathematically challenged." The only way we pick anything other than F-35 is if its based on pure spiteful politics. We would pay more, to get less, and still be buying American anyway while losing the F-35 contracts here.
In any case it would be particularly surprising if the Egyptian Rafales had anything to fear from subsonic guinea fowl.
Clear ? ;)
it would be nice if the Rafale could handle the Super Hornet first. Baby steps. what is it like to lose to the F-35? to be found inferior in all these evaluations to a "subsonic guinea fowl" That seems humiliating but, you seem to be into that. imagine losing to an F-35 over and over publicly.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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it would be nice if the Rafale could handle the Super Hornet first. Baby steps. what is it like to lose to the F-35? to be found inferior in all these evaluations to a "subsonic guinea fowl" That seems humiliating but, you seem to be into that. imagine losing to an F-35 over and over publicly.
There is evidence as compelling as that which you exhibit to establish the capabilities of the F-18 SH, showing that the Rafale can easily handle the F-22, and tests from the CVN Theodore Roosevelt have shown that for the Rafale the SH is a joke.
As for Switzerland, there is no reason for me to feel humiliated by this pseudo competition. If the Swiss want to buy a subsonic guinea fowl, that's their right, they won't buy it with my taxes.
 

Optimist

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There are not going to be many Super Hornet overhaul facilities in the coming decades at all, and unlike the original hornet, there simply isn't much beyond the US Navy. Whoever is stuck with Super Hornets past 2040 is going to be paying big to keep them running and upgraded. Canada won't have anyone to fall back on like they have with the Americans and buying used Australian birds


its not even close to the F-35 cost. The swiss say Super Hornet costs more, the submitted DSCAs for the Swiss and the Finnish have the price higher than F-35, plus we had Boeing already try and sell us Super Hornets and they were massively more expensive to get older aircraft with less future left. That's not "competitive" its a joke for anyone but the "mathematically challenged." The only way we pick anything other than F-35 is if its based on pure spiteful politics. We would pay more, to get less, and still be buying American anyway while losing the F-35 contracts here.

it would be nice if the Rafale could handle the Super Hornet first. Baby steps. what is it like to lose to the F-35? to be found inferior in all these evaluations to a "subsonic guinea fowl" That seems humiliating but, you seem to be into that. imagine losing to an F-35 over and over publicly.
we are still planning on retiring the super hornet in 2030.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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You two should talk.

Literally no relation.

There are not going to be many Super Hornet overhaul facilities in the coming decades at all, and unlike the original hornet, there simply isn't much beyond the US Navy. Whoever is stuck with Super Hornets past 2040 is going to be paying big to keep them running and upgraded. Canada won't have anyone to fall back on like they have with the Americans and buying used Australian birds

The IN is facing the same dilemma with the SH and Rafale, only the SH fits our carriers. The only other option is the F-35C.

But, considering only the Block IIIs, with US and India operating 36 each, Germany with 30, Kuwait with 24 and Canada with 88, there's still gonna be 214 SHs in play by then. And then, there's Growlers, at least 150-200 of them.

its not even close to the F-35 cost. The swiss say Super Hornet costs more, the submitted DSCAs for the Swiss and the Finnish have the price higher than F-35, plus we had Boeing already try and sell us Super Hornets and they were massively more expensive to get older aircraft with less future left. That's not "competitive" its a joke for anyone but the "mathematically challenged." The only way we pick anything other than F-35 is if its based on pure spiteful politics. We would pay more, to get less, and still be buying American anyway while losing the F-35 contracts here.

It depends on how well the SH costs cross over into Canada's already well-established Hornet infrastructure. And Boeing's promising $48B in business over the SH's service life.
 

Innominate

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There is evidence as compelling as that which you exhibit to establish the capabilities of the F-18 SH, showing that the Rafale can easily handle the F-22, and tests from the CVN Theodore Roosevelt have shown that for the Rafale the SH is a joke.

Oh really?

f18 vs rafale.jpg

f18 vs rafale 2.jpg


And that is with two tanks hanging from the F-18
As for Switzerland, there is no reason for me to feel humiliated by this pseudo competition. If the Swiss want to buy a subsonic guinea fowl, that's their right, they won't buy it with my taxes.

Poor old man except reality that your fighter is inferior.
 

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Picdelamirand-oil

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Yes Really
BFM_between_French_RafaleF22_Raptor_-_ATLC_2009_on_Vimeo.mp4_000123920.jpg



BFM_between_French_RafaleF22_Raptor_-_ATLC_2009_on_Vimeo.mp4_000125320.jpg

At 4:10, the F-22 is again in sight, and the Rafale turns inside the F-22's trajectory. At 4:20 the F-22 is locked but the Rafale pilot does not claim a missile shot, a 'low speed' alert appears at 4:26 (speed about 120 kts) and disappears at 4:28 to reappear at 4:29; a 'low fuel level' alert appears at 4:26

BFM_between_French_RafaleF22_Raptor_-_ATLC_2009_on_Vimeo.mp4_000153440.jpg



BFM_between_French_RafaleF22_Raptor_-_ATLC_2009_on_Vimeo.mp4_000157640.jpg

At 4:35, the Rafale pointed at the ground and the speed had risen above 100 knots again. The Rafale finds the F-22, which has regained energy, in the view at 4:40 the F-22 turns very tightly for several seconds, and at 4:50 the Rafale is lined up behind the F-22 and has successfully locked its missile.

And if you want more pictures, I have more, and if you prefer a Video I have it too.
 

Innominate

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F-5s, T-38s and F-16 aggressors shoot down F-22s and F-15s in dogfights so according to your delusional brain those fighters are better than F-22 and F-15?

You do know in real combat your french plane would be dead long before it ever knows there's an F-22 and F-35? The french planes equal is the F-18E.
 
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Innominate

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This is how impressed these fighter pilots were of your french plane killing a Raptor.
Start at beginning it's like they are making fun of you.
:rolleyes:
 

Spitfire6

Member
Oct 31, 2021
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Literally no relation.

you're practically twins!
The IN is facing the same dilemma with the SH and Rafale, only the SH fits our carriers. The only other option is the F-35C.

But, considering only the Block IIIs, with US and India operating 36 each, Germany with 30, Kuwait with 24 and Canada with 88, there's still gonna be 214 SHs in play by then. And then, there's Growlers, at least 150-200 of them.

whole lot of assumptions all around. I wouldn't count it until its done. Great to see how hard Boeing is working india. They burned us really nicely too. You'll learn the hard way



It depends on how well the SH costs cross over into Canada's already well-established Hornet infrastructure. And Boeing's promising $48B in business over the SH's service life.
you really have no idea what you are talking about. I don't know if Boeing is working their same standard lies they handed us to India, but Super Hornets won't even fit into our current hangars. We also have "well established hornet infrastructure" that isn't helpful since we work most closely with the American air force and they don't use Navy aircraft like we do. Boeing already made an offer to Canada, it was over 5 billion dollars for just 18 aircraft, no doubt this offering will be less, but there is simply no chance it comes in under F-35.
 
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Spitfire6

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So why won't the Americans agree to do BVR combat against Rafales on exercise?
So they can beat Rafale WVR and get good pictures?
There is evidence as compelling as that which you exhibit to establish the capabilities of the F-18 SH, showing that the Rafale can easily handle the F-22,

Rafale never loses except when the Americans cheat by making their aircraft better and more affordable.

As for Switzerland, there is no reason for me to feel humiliated by this pseudo competition. If the Swiss want to buy a subsonic guinea fowl, that's their right, they won't buy it with my taxes.

I don't care what they pick! Also they cheated! LOL for a bunch of people who say they don't care you sure do whine about it.
 
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Innominate

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And in the end what they say is very true and also applies to the F-18 SH killing a Rafale
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Duh. But it's you french plane fanboys that boast about the french planes agility as some frigging ability that only the french plane has that somehow makes it some undefeatable dogfighter. When you boys do that I make sure to take you boys down a peg or two by showing you how an F-18 with two tanks can gun kill a clean super duper agile french plane. You get it now?

Reality for youz people is your french plane is nothing special than you fanboys make it out to be. Reality is your french plane will ALWAYS get killed in real life combat by F-22 and F-35 before the french plane even knows it's being hunted.

Problem with french plane fanboys, and GripenE fanboys, is you think you are in the same league as the F-35 not because of capabilities but because your delusional mind THINKS it is. The truth is you fanboys can't except that your plane belongs in the same league as the F-15, F-16, and F-18E. That is your planes competition not the F-35. To believe otherwise is to live in a lie just like a woke fatso who wears a two piece bikini because she thinks she's not fat.

Here's another reality.... F-15EX, F-16V and F-18E III is likely more capable than your french plane.
 
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Spitfire6

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This is how impressed these fighter pilots were of your french plane killing a Raptor.
Start at beginning it's like they are making fun of you.
:rolleyes:
LOL the Rafale fanboys are still clinging to this?! LOL maybe some day Dassault can build something 5th gen, but for right now I'm dying LOL