Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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You said the F-35 would never fight against the rafale. I gave you just one situation. With Egypt and Israel, where it could.

I already knew about this example beforehand when I wrote that post. The economic and technological base simply aren't the same. A more valid comparison would be within Greece. We did the same between the IL-76 and C-17, the IAF and IA found the IL-76 to be superior to the C-17.

But you're missing the point. The F-35 was made to fight non-European jets, ie, the J-20 and Su-57 in this case, hell, even AMCA, if the need arises. Do you really think it's important for Canada, Finland, Australia or Japan to see how well the Rafale does against the F-35?
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Air forces know how the rafale will go against the f-35, it's the fanboys who are confused. Sims show how 4.5 gen aircraft go against the f-35. Confirmed by Red flag, 20:1 LER in 3F configuration. When there was a drive to cancel the F-35 early on. The sims were at 3:1 then 4:1 and 6:1. It improved as they worked out what it could do, with the advances made over the last 10 years.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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F-22 Raptor Covered In Mirror-Like Coating Photographed Flying Out Of Nellis AFB


A highly intriguing U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor stealth fighter was caught in the camera lens of talented aviation photographer Santos Caceres as it blasted out of Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada on the morning of November 19th, 2021. The aircraft is seen largely covered in a tile-like reflective metallic coating that is unlike anything we have seen on a Raptor ever before.

While the F-22 can look drastically different when its intricate skin coating and delicate composite stealthy structures are in various states of repair, one sporting polished metal has never been seen before nor does it make any outright operational sense. Note how the coating has been carefully applied to not interfere with the jet's many key access points, sensor and antenna areas, and other critical systems.

While what we are exactly seeing here is still up for debate, it looks like the Raptor in question has a mosaic of reflective material applied to its normal skin for some sort of testing purpose. It just so happens that we have seen something uncannily similar before, but on an even more exotic airframe.



F-22-Silver-coating-nellis.jpg


In June of 2020, The War Zone exclusively reported that one of Scaled Composites Model 401 'Son Of Ares' demonstrators had flown a number of test flights over Naval Air Weapons Center China Lake covered in a highly-reflective metallic coating. It had a similar patchwork quality to what we are seeing here on the F-22. At the time we posited that this could be for testing advanced infrared sensors and even possible low-power laser systems and their targeting capabilities against a 'mirrored' target.

There is a tremendous amount of testing currently ongoing on infrared search and track systems (IRSTs) that are in the early processes of being widely fielded by the Air Force and the Navy, as well as developmental work on emerging aerial laser systems. Of unique note is ongoing testing of multiple General Atomics Avenger unmanned combat air vehicles sporting Legion IRST pods that has been occurring over the Mojave Desert. These tests have been in conjunction with the Skyborg aerial artificial intelligence initiative and larger highly advanced testing scenarios. The testing of various laser systems is also becoming extremely aggressive, as well, as part of a larger push to move directed-energy concepts into an operational state. This includes laser systems intended to be fielded aboard fighter aircraft.

The F-22 could be a highly prized target platform for these types of tests because of its performance—namely its ability to fly at upwards of 60,000 feet with regularity. The thin and cold air at that altitude, as well as the angle at which most sensors would view such a target, against the dark and cold background of the upper atmosphere, could be very beneficial for trialing these systems. Just having a high-performance fighter wearing this coating, which some who have seen it describe as being like the shiny side of foil, could have its own testing benefits as systems it is being tested against mature, but the use of an F-22 is quite the tell here. These prized aircraft are not usually used for tests like this. If a generic fighter target was needed, an F-15 or F-16 that has none of the low-observable skin considerations, among many other factors, could have been used.

We may have also seen a similar application on an F-117 before, which would not be surprising as these aircraft directly support continued airborne signature testing. Regardless, by all accounts, the USAF appears to be making huge investments in airborne signature testing in recent years, which makes sense considering the geopolitical and competitive climate we are living in now. It is possible that this mirror-like coating has developed into a modular and non-invasive application that is now part of that developmental ecosystem.

Of course, there could be entirely other testing and developmental objectives at play here. But for an aircraft that was designed at great cost and effort to not directly reflect electromagnetic energy from radars, testing a skin treatment that could do the exact opposite in other spectrums is highly interesting.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,591
996
California
But you're missing the point. The F-35 was made to fight non-European jets, ie, the J-20 and Su-57 in this case, hell, even AMCA, if the need arises. Do you really think it's important for Canada, Finland, Australia or Japan to see how well the Rafale does against the F-35?
Making BS claims just comes naturally out of your mouth, huh?

How the hell do you know what the F-35 was made and not made to fight? Where do you get the chutzpah to make such a BS claim for the public to see? When F-35 production model first flew Pak-fa prototype wasn't even finished yet forget the J-20.

Get this through your head the F-35 WAS MADE to fight all potential adversary fighters including Eurocanards which it won't have any trouble removing from the sky.
 

Optimist

Well-Known member
Oct 31, 2021
569
268
Australia

F-22 Raptor Covered In Mirror-Like Coating Photographed Flying Out Of Nellis AFB


A highly intriguing U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor stealth fighter was caught in the camera lens of talented aviation photographer Santos Caceres as it blasted out of Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada on the morning of November 19th, 2021. The aircraft is seen largely covered in a tile-like reflective metallic coating that is unlike anything we have seen on a Raptor ever before.

While the F-22 can look drastically different when its intricate skin coating and delicate composite stealthy structures are in various states of repair, one sporting polished metal has never been seen before nor does it make any outright operational sense. Note how the coating has been carefully applied to not interfere with the jet's many key access points, sensor and antenna areas, and other critical systems.

While what we are exactly seeing here is still up for debate, it looks like the Raptor in question has a mosaic of reflective material applied to its normal skin for some sort of testing purpose. It just so happens that we have seen something uncannily similar before, but on an even more exotic airframe.



F-22-Silver-coating-nellis.jpg


In June of 2020, The War Zone exclusively reported that one of Scaled Composites Model 401 'Son Of Ares' demonstrators had flown a number of test flights over Naval Air Weapons Center China Lake covered in a highly-reflective metallic coating. It had a similar patchwork quality to what we are seeing here on the F-22. At the time we posited that this could be for testing advanced infrared sensors and even possible low-power laser systems and their targeting capabilities against a 'mirrored' target.

There is a tremendous amount of testing currently ongoing on infrared search and track systems (IRSTs) that are in the early processes of being widely fielded by the Air Force and the Navy, as well as developmental work on emerging aerial laser systems. Of unique note is ongoing testing of multiple General Atomics Avenger unmanned combat air vehicles sporting Legion IRST pods that has been occurring over the Mojave Desert. These tests have been in conjunction with the Skyborg aerial artificial intelligence initiative and larger highly advanced testing scenarios. The testing of various laser systems is also becoming extremely aggressive, as well, as part of a larger push to move directed-energy concepts into an operational state. This includes laser systems intended to be fielded aboard fighter aircraft.

The F-22 could be a highly prized target platform for these types of tests because of its performance—namely its ability to fly at upwards of 60,000 feet with regularity. The thin and cold air at that altitude, as well as the angle at which most sensors would view such a target, against the dark and cold background of the upper atmosphere, could be very beneficial for trialing these systems. Just having a high-performance fighter wearing this coating, which some who have seen it describe as being like the shiny side of foil, could have its own testing benefits as systems it is being tested against mature, but the use of an F-22 is quite the tell here. These prized aircraft are not usually used for tests like this. If a generic fighter target was needed, an F-15 or F-16 that has none of the low-observable skin considerations, among many other factors, could have been used.

We may have also seen a similar application on an F-117 before, which would not be surprising as these aircraft directly support continued airborne signature testing. Regardless, by all accounts, the USAF appears to be making huge investments in airborne signature testing in recent years, which makes sense considering the geopolitical and competitive climate we are living in now. It is possible that this mirror-like coating has developed into a modular and non-invasive application that is now part of that developmental ecosystem.

Of course, there could be entirely other testing and developmental objectives at play here. But for an aircraft that was designed at great cost and effort to not directly reflect electromagnetic energy from radars, testing a skin treatment that could do the exact opposite in other spectrums is highly interesting.
That's the composite before painting. They may be flight testing? It has had f-35 tech retrofitted
1637518053449.png
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
Air forces know how the rafale will go against the f-35, it's the fanboys who are confused. Sims show how 4.5 gen aircraft go against the f-35. Confirmed by Red flag, 20:1 LER in 3F configuration. When there was a drive to cancel the F-35 early on. The sims were at 3:1 then 4:1 and 6:1. It improved as they worked out what it could do, with the advances made over the last 10 years.

Correction:
Air forces know how the teens will go against the f-35,
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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Yes, I should have said air forces that have bought the f-35. You knew that and this is a wasted post. the others are having educated assessments

Just pointing out that yours was a wasted post.

You forget that the Swiss tender was the first Rafale vs F-35 competition, followed by the Finnish one.

So there are no "air forces".
 
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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Perhaps reading isn't you best asset. "Sims show how 4.5 gen aircraft go against the f-35. Confirmed by Red flag, 20:1 LER in 3F configuration."
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,636
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India
Perhaps reading isn't you best asset. "Sims show how 4.5 gen aircraft go against the f-35. Confirmed by Red flag, 20:1 LER in 3F configuration."

That's 'cause AWACS and fighter radars cannot yet see the F-35.

“We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years,” a senior IAF official said. Rather, the IAF is more interested in the F-35 as an advanced electronic warfare (EW) platform: “So we need electronic warfare capabilities that can be rapidly improved. The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding more software.”

So it's temporary. Once the F-35's stealth is defeated, it's gonna be no different than any 4th gen jet.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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That's 'cause AWACS and fighter radars cannot yet see the F-35.

“We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years,” a senior IAF official said. Rather, the IAF is more interested in the F-35 as an advanced electronic warfare (EW) platform: “So we need electronic warfare capabilities that can be rapidly improved. The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding more software.”

So it's temporary. Once the F-35's stealth is defeated, it's gonna be no different than any 4th gen jet.

And the 20:1 result, if true, was against F-16, not against Rafale.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,591
996
California
That's 'cause AWACS and fighter radars cannot yet see the F-35.

“We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years,” a senior IAF official said. Rather, the IAF is more interested in the F-35 as an advanced electronic warfare (EW) platform: “So we need electronic warfare capabilities that can be rapidly improved. The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding more software.”

So it's temporary. Once the F-35's stealth is defeated, it's gonna be no different than any 4th gen jet.
This article is quoting IAF official from 2012 and was talking about the F-35's EW capability AT THAT TIME!
IsraelF-35EW_AWST.png


Lol. Nice try fanboy.
 
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Innominate

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Jun 23, 2021
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California
And the 20:1 result, if true, was against F-16, not against Rafale.

I know you think I'm just torturing you but the truth should never hurt you this much. You see the F-35 has taken on and defeated more advanced 4th gen fighters than your french plane and I'm not talking about gunfights which is all but dead with Israel proving that during the Bekaa Valley air war where they gun down two aircraft which were helicopters I'm talking 4th gen fighters with APG-82 AESA, JHMCS, Aim-9x and sniper pods getting killed without ever knowing the F-35's were there.
48094ca1c355cf08e00256f5e4c1f44f45b13c3a662adb99e396b5a8557f4528.jpg