Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

randomradio

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RBE2-AA wasn't in service then either. They were demonstrator technologies on both sides.

I thought we were talking about sensor fusion. Also the fact that the Swiss did not test AESA for both Gripen and Typhoon. Both offered AESAs for the first time only to India. So only the Rafale had the AESA in the game.
 

WHOHE

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'So.... Congress does not fund proper maintenance of the F-35 (i.e. depots) and/or the services fail to standup the maintenance depots fast enough to sustain the F-35's purchased per their chosen maintenance model... and the solution is to throw the engine manufacturer under the bus and throw BILLIONS of dollars at a new powerplant?

LMAO

Cannot make this sh*t up. Rep. Smith oughta be ashamed of himself. But I doubt he is. He may not even be cognizant of the problem created (or exacerbated) by his peers.'

Good old Rep Smith Boeings puppet.

It's not an engine problem but congress problem that is what you fail to realize unlike the french planes engine which IS an engine issue where it is underpowered for its current weight.

-French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons.

La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

However, the upgrade issue had not been discussed with Dassault Aviation, the Safran CEO added.

"It is time to ask the question whether it is appropriate to launch a study that would increase the engine thrust. Technically we can do. We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if possible. and if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable to improve it, said Philippe Petitcolin (the quote has been translated from French).
 

randomradio

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F-35 Stealth Jets Plagued By Engine Issues; Will USAF Dump ‘Low Yield’ Pratt & Whitney Engines For GE’s XA100?

BySafiya Khanam

October 11, 2021

The Lockheed Martin F-35 is the star of the US Air Force’s fleet of warplanes, offering the best stealth and being the most lethal, survivable, and one of the most technologically advanced fighter jets in the world.

However, to retain its position as a super-advanced jet, the F-35 Lightning II will require further improvements than what they already have, something a new engine could provide.

The service is evaluating whether an advanced engine could offer better thrust, efficiency in cruise, superior stealth, reduction in carbon emissions than what the previous engine did. But has the USAF found a replacement for the F-35’s engines?

The three variants of the F-35 – the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL), the F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL), and the F-35C carrier (CV/CATOBAR)– all currently use the F135 engine developed by Pratt & Whitney.

Known as the heartbeat of the stealth jet, the engine provides more than 40,000 lbs. of thrust, unmatched low-observable signature, world-class thermal management, and the most advanced integrated engine control system delivering an unrivaled performance to 10 militaries globally.

But there is no rose without a thorn and there exists no engine that has no room for upgrades. With several reports of there being a shortage of engines, overheating and cracking of turbine blades and earlier than expected service requirements, the current F135 engines are encountering multiple issues.

This is, in turn, increasing the number of aircraft awaiting miscellaneous spare parts or are in need of upgraded F135 engine power modules and adding to the readiness issues faced by the service frequently.

Naturally, the Armed Service Committee is not satisfied with the aircraft’s sustainment and is on the lookout for an advanced engine that could deliver sizable gains in both costs as well as performance.

Adaptive Engine Transition Program

The 2022 National Defense Authorization Act (house version) requires the F-35 Joint Program Office to pursue a strategy for incorporation of the Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP) engine into the F-35 conventional takeoff fleet by the beginning of 2027.

The AETP is a research project by the US Air Force aiming to provide a 30% increase in range, an 18% decrease in acceleration time, and improved thermal management compared to the P&W F135 engine that currently powers the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter.

Additionally, the high-thrust mode of this adaptive engine will direct the majority of air through the engine’s core and bypass turbofan streams, delivering greater thrust for combat manoeuvering. Due to the third flow having a cooling effect, the core will run hotter further increasing the fuel efficiency.

Basically, what the USAF is looking for is re-engining the F-35A with an adaptive engine to increase the aircraft’s 2,220km range which is viewed as too short for attacking targets within China.

Options Before USAF

Pratt & Whitney, the manufacturer of the current F135 engines and is currently developing the XA101 AETP engine, has offered to make modifications to its F135 that would be sufficient to meet all the Joint Strike Fighter’s future power and thrust needs with a margin.

It argues that modifications to the F135 engine can improve thrust and efficiency and would be far less costly than giving the F-35 fighter a new powerplant developed through the Adaptive Engine Transition Program.

Equipping a combat aircraft with a new engine would add another $40 billion to the overall cost of the remaining expected 50-year life of the program, according to P&F.



GE Aviation, a rival company, has received $4 billion from the USAF to develop its XA100 engine which is in the final stages of testing. The problem that lies with the GE or even P&F rivaling to offer an engine that can fit into the F-35 fuselage and be integrated with other onboard systems is that it is designed for the air force variant and not for the marine and navy variant.

The new engines – GE’s XA100 and P&W’s XA101 – are reported to run throughout the year at Arnold AFB’s Engineering Development Complex near Tullahoma in Tennessee, according to the USAF Materiel Command

But these new engine brings a gaping hole in the pockets of the budget of the united states compelling officials and experts to ask if the new, high-cost engines are worth the investment and R&D?

Ambiguity Over New Engines

Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall feels uncertain about the new engines saying that he favors pursuing a successor to the F135 only if it is affordable.

“If we have to, we’ll look hard at the affordability of going forward just as we have on the rest of the program. But those advantages are substantial. And I’d like to be able to pursue them if it’s affordable,” Kendall said during AFA’s Air, Space & Cyber Conference.

There are two contending issues regarding the new engines that are creating a sense of ambivalence and raising questions of viability, feasibility, and affordability.

First, since the new engine is intended to add to the newer F-35s along with the existing engines, the Air Force will have to incur huge costs maintaining two spare parts stores, two maintenance processes, and dual programs for training personnel. Second, the engine is only compatible with the Air Force variant which will be leaving the Navy and Marine services to use a separate support system.

Now, the responsibility F-35 Joint Program Office, which currently shoulders while conducting tradeoffs over the next 6-12 months, is to keep an eye on the feasibility and affordability concerns and define future options with the better range, stealth, extra thrust, and efficiency the new engine will bring in.

This new engine will be a major gamechanger at the China front. Increased combat radius and reduced tanker sorties is very crucial there.
 

randomradio

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Can someone explain this picture?? The j20 has -29dBsqmView attachment 21450
How does it compare to the f35?

The F-35 is said to be more stealthy than the F-22, so the difference between -30dBsm and -40dBsm is 10 times, assuming the F-22 is -35dBsm. If the J-20's RCS is indeed -30dBsm, then the F-22 and F-35 won't have any significant advantage in terms of stealth over the J-20. Even more so as the J-20 is improving at a faster clip with each new version.
 
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WHOHE

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Another US Troll here....
MMRCA "cancellation" generated an order for 36 Rafale. MMRCA2 was never released, so never cancelled.
Short fins Barracuda was not canceled for price or technical reason. Stop to be the useless idiot of @WHOHE please.

Because they choose F35.
Lol. The dumb is strong in you, huh? Especially after you said this...

"Indeed. It's the F22.
F35 fails short on supercruise and F16 like agility, so not a true 5th gen."

Funny part is only you frogs think like this while the rest of Europe doesn't. How many Euro nation fly the french plane compared to F-35 again..? :ROFLMAO:

Poor thing next month you will be hurting a lot when Finland selects F-35 and says MEH! to the french plane.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Have the french planes engines been upgraded yet..? No! So your plane is heavier and underpowered so when is your plane getting its new engines?
The CEO of an engine manufacturer says he can improve the thrust of the Rafale's engine and you would like him to say after that "but the Rafale doesn't need it"? :ROFLMAO:

The fact that it has still not been done, even though it is possible, proves that the need does not exist.
 
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WHOHE

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The CEO of an engine manufacturer says he can improve the thrust of the Rafale's engine and you would like him to say after that "but the Rafale doesn't need it"? :ROFLMAO:

The fact that it has still not been done, even though it is possible, proves that the need does not exist.
CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

It's underpowered.
 
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WHOHE

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Is that all you could find to criticise the Rafale? You are an ignorant.
You really think you know the Rafale better than I do? :ROFLMAO:
The french plane is not under the eyes of many like the F-35 because it is insignificant also dussault is not opened about problems with their plane unlike LM is with F-35 which is why Euro nations select the F-35. They don't trust the french and a good recent example of this mistrust was the ozzie sub deal. Safran was being honest when it says the plane is using the same engines it had 20 years ago and the plane has gotten much heavier, ergo, underpowered. When F-16, F-15, F-18, F-14 etc etc... enter service they get engine upgrades a few years later because they know as they upgrade their fighters they get heavier. I get the french can't afford it which is the obvious reason for using the same tired engine for this long.
 
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AbRaj

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Another US Troll here....
MMRCA "cancellation" generated an order for 36 Rafale. MMRCA2 was never released, so never cancelled.
Short fins Barracuda was not canceled for price or technical reason. Stop to be the useless idiot of @WHOHE please..
You can ignore the problem by labelling everyone as US fanboy. But it should be better if French companies do some introspection as to why their deals are failing one after the other despite having very competitive products. Maybe, just maybe theirs way of doing deals are flawed or too rigid for customers, compared to say US companies.
For example the C17 deal was terribly delayed and so does the MH 60,Ch 47and AH64. But they were flexible enough not to escalate the price so much so that IAF and IN had to scrap the deal like what happened in MMRCA.Same think happened to M2000 deal a decade earlier. The price in case of Rafale escalated to sharply that it became unaffordable for IAF to peruse the deal and they had to scrap the deal and order meagre amount to fulfill the immediate requirements.

And what’s worse is we are still hunting for same MMRCAs after decades of negotiations with Rafale. And same Rafale is still the most favourite contender barring its high price. It could have gone the Su30mki way with large order assembled locally in India under Dassault QC.
 
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randomradio

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You can ignore the problem by labelling everyone as US fanboy. But it should be better if French companies do some introspection as to why their deals are failing one after the other despite having very competitive products. Maybe, just maybe theirs way of doing deals are flawed or too rigid for customers, compared to say US companies.
For example the C17 deal was terribly delayed and so does the MH 60,Ch 47and AH64. But they were flexible enough not to escalate the price so much so that IAF and IN had to scrap the deal like what happened in MMRCA.Same think happened to M2000 deal a decade earlier. The price in case of Rafale escalated to sharply that it became unaffordable for IAF to peruse the deal and they had to scrap the deal and order meagre amount to fulfill the immediate requirements.

And what’s worse is we are still hunting for same MMRCAs after decades of negotiations with Rafale. And same Rafale is still the most favourite contender barring its high price. It could have gone the Su30mki way with large order assembled locally in India under Dassault QC.

Each situation is different and should be judged differently. MMRCA failed in India because HAL changed the rules of the game during negotiations and the changes they needed came with higher costs. For example, HAL didn't want to use French tools, they wanted to buy tools through a tender. But that would mean the aircraft will have to be recertified, which means a new IOC and FOC process. Plus they wanted lesser automation and more manual work. All of these contributed to increase in manpower, manhour and other production costs. And it's typical of DPSUs to screw up later on, which results in cost escalation. This is why the govt brought in the JV process, where the OEM gets to make important decisions instead of leaving it to the Indian partner alone. It's a different story that we couldn't afford it at the time anyway.

You can't compare any of this to the deals we have had with the US since none of them included license production in India. All we did is place an order for equipment the US was already producing. The 36 Rafales came through the same process and it was as efficient, if not more efficient, as any of our deals with the US. The same hurdles we face with the French will happen with the US as well, when it comes to license production. It's because one gets to know the true costs only after contract negotiations start with all the contractors and subcontractors expected to contribute in the program.

The French-Aus sub deal suffered the same fate as MMRCA, since beginning the production of subs from scratch in a country with no experience is gonna be insanely expensive. It still would have gone through, though, had the US not changed the game completely.

As for the F-35 vs Rafale in Switzerland, the F-35 was simply cheaper at the time of the shortlist, there's nothing more to it. The lowest bidder won. Even if they bring the two jets to India to fulfill an import order, the result will be the same. And it's set to repeat in Finland as well. There's nothing the French can do about this.
 
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Bon Plan

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Have the french planes engines been upgraded yet..? No! So your plane is heavier and underpowered so when is your plane getting its new engines?
Once again, false.
1st gen : M88-2 (that means there was a M88-1...)
2nd gen in 2010 : M88-2 E4 (for fuel efficience)
3rd gen in 2014 : M88-4E (to increase life OR TO INCREASE THRUST. A choice not made by french air force)

Some R&D efforts are on course to increase core temperature.

For a rustic guy like you only a thrust increase is an evolution.... Rafale don't need more thrust today. It is able to supercruise with AAM and tank when your old turkey can't.
 

Bon Plan

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However, the upgrade issue had not been discussed with Dassault Aviation, the Safran CEO added.
It is a customer decision, not a Dassault CEO one. French air force don't need more thrust today.
A 9tons thrust M88 (M88-X) was studied for UAE and one sample flew some years ago.
So a closed file.
The price in case of Rafale escalated to sharply that it became unaffordable for IAF to peruse the deal and they had to scrap the deal and order meagre amount to fulfill the immediate requirements.
no. The HAL Rafale price escalated. Not the Dassault made one.
 

BMD

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I thought we were talking about sensor fusion. Also the fact that the Swiss did not test AESA for both Gripen and Typhoon. Both offered AESAs for the first time only to India. So only the Rafale had the AESA in the game.
We are, they tested a future version of the sensor fusion for both aircraft. For radar they tested RBE2 AESA vs Captor M-Scan.
Once again, false.
1st gen : M88-2 (that means there was a M88-1...)
2nd gen in 2010 : M88-2 E4 (for fuel efficience)
3rd gen in 2014 : M88-4E (to increase life OR TO INCREASE THRUST. A choice not made by french air force)

Some R&D efforts are on course to increase core temperature.

For a rustic guy like you only a thrust increase is an evolution.... Rafale don't need more thrust today. It is able to supercruise with AAM and tank when your old turkey can't.
EJ200 still beats the M88 hands down.