Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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Chinese surely doesn't want to give US an opportunity to be privileged of Indian support. Seems Chinese minds are working and now only want to focus on SCS for now and Ladakh later on.

The Damage has been done to India China Relationship

Till now.the Indian Govt was Always hopeful that China will one day realise the futility of grabbing Barren and Mountainous terrain where nobody lives

But the Chinese DERIVE PLEASURE by Bullying their Neighbors.

Now we will.show.them the
Real.meaning of Enimity

This standoff will.speed up our acquisitions and also.firm.up the India.US alliance

It is the beginning of a New era for India
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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Not fighting necessary wars is even more expensive.

Wars are NOT fought for Satisfying The EGO of people

If we can achieve better results by waiting for some time , there is NO harm

The Territory is NOT going any where

For example after 1971 we thought Pakistan will never be able to.stand.up.to India

But today they are a BiG Nuisance for us

Similarly we can also.give a Lot of trouble to China , BUT Not Today

The Fire of Revenge should Burn inside the Heart
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
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20% is a big number. If fully assembled airframe in India is anything under 100 million USD a piece. IAF will surely go for its intended 189 Rafales. But I doubt it. However as I said, I hope you are correct.

Dassault wouldn't build Falcons in India if it was more expensive than in France though. And most of the Falcons will have to be exported, the Indian market is not mature enough yet. So there's that.
Devil knows, we are not even able to properly attack Pakistan even in retaliation. We are 10 times in economy and seven times in population.

Why haven't the US attacked North Korea yet? 13 times the population and 766 times the economy.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Well, conflict is like a calamity. Nobody can ever be ready for it. You can prepare for it, surely. It is forced on you and then you have to face it. You cannt wish it away.
When I say the society is not ready, I mean that we are not ready to take in casualties. We are not ready to accept financial hardships. Not ready to accept any kind of deviation from our daily routines. And that gets reflected in our government.

There are societies which have an appetite for war. We don't.
 

Saaho

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Dec 27, 2019
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Wars are NOT fought for Satisfying The EGO of people
Preventing territory loss is a very legitimate reason to fight.
Interdicting terrorist attacks is a very legitimate reason to fight.

The Territory is NOT going any where
With time, it will only get harder as enemy has dug in and made permanent structures and brought in reinforcements. Ask @Falcon, he suggested that India should mobilize reserves and put ITBP under IA during the early June or late May build up. We didn't act and now the Chinese have a much stronger hold on the territory.

For example after 1971 we thought Pakistan will never be able to.stand.up.to India
Well, 71 war made a possible 3 and a half front war into a 2 and a half front war. It reduced vulnerability of chicken's neck / siliguri corridor substantially.

But they are a BiG Nuisance for us
If we had crushed them in 80s, there would have been no Nuclear Pakistan for us to fear and there would have not been a major Kashmiri terrorism.
If we had crushed them in 2000s when they attacked Indian Parliament even at the cost of few cities in India, there would have not been a question of 2 front war.

See the pattern? If you avoid a necessary conflict, you increase the cost in the future.
 
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Saaho

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When I say the society is not ready, I mean that we are not ready to take in casualties. We are not ready to accept financial hardships. Not ready to accept any kind of deviation from our daily routines. And that gets reflected in our government.

There are societies which have an appetite for war. We don't.
There is no society which accepts deaths of its people and economic hardship. War is always hard on society. But sometimes, you have to fight.
 
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Deathstar

Well-Known member
Jun 1, 2019
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The Chinese know that India has been neutral till now. If pushed more , we can easily jump into the US camp. Just a statement from a minister , to allow Americans to use Indian bases will send shivers in the Chinese camp
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,508
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Preventing territory loss is a very legitimate reason to fight.
Interdicting terrorist attacks is a very legitimate reason to fight.


With time, it will only get harder as enemy has dug in and made permanent structures and brought in reinforcements. Ask @Falcon, he suggested that India should mobilize reserves and put ITBP under IA during the early June or late May build up. We didn't act and now the Chinese have a much stronger hold on the territory.


Well, 71 war made a possible 3 and a half front war into a 2 and a half front war. It reduced vulnerability of chicken's neck / siliguri corridor substantially.


If we had crushed them in 80s, there would have been no Nuclear Pakistan for us to fear and there would have not been a major Kashmiri terrorism.
If we had crushed them in 2000s when they attacked Indian Parliament even at the cost of few cities in India, there would have not been a question of 2 front war.

See the pattern? If you avoid a necessary conflict, you increase the cost in the future.

This Corona tragedy has hurt our economy

You being in Canada are unable to either understand or appreciate the
Economic compulsions of Govt of India
 

jetray

Senior member
Mar 15, 2018
2,117
1,199
India
The Damage has been done to India China Relationship

Till now.the Indian Govt was Always hopeful that China will one day realise the futility of grabbing Barren and Mountainous terrain where nobody lives

But the Chinese DERIVE PLEASURE by Bullying their Neighbors.

Now we will.show.them the
Real.meaning of Enimity

This standoff will.speed up our acquisitions and also.firm.up the India.US alliance

It is the beginning of a New era for India
will see whether Indians forget every thing like cows and pander to china again or will the current momentum is kept up.
We should have done this right after doklam but we dint. It has been the same story since 1962 and will continue.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,508
4,614
will see whether Indians forget every thing like cows and pander to china again or will the current momentum is kept up.
We should have done this right after doklam but we dint. It has been the same story since 1962 and will continue.

China will NOT give up its bullying habits

A withdrawal will be looked upon as
China having chickened out of a fight

So there will be a Next Time
 

Saaho

Senior member
Dec 27, 2019
2,034
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Earth
Why haven't the US attacked North Korea yet? 13 times the population and 766 times the economy.
Because :
a. North Korea for all its bravado has not militarily harmed US or even South Korea in recent past. How much cross border shelling happens on Korea LoC? How many cross border incursion happen on Korean LoC?
b. IF North Korea crosses the LoC and occupies or sends in infiltrators doing terrorist attacks, US will flatten it.
 

Saaho

Senior member
Dec 27, 2019
2,034
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This Corona tragedy has hurt our economy

You being in Canada are unable to either understand or appreciate the
Economic compulsions of Govt of India
I have been in Canada for less than 2 years and before that I was in India itself. As far as economic compulsion of Indian government goes; here is what India government and state governments are doing.

Building massive statues costing several hundreds of million dollars. Remember that Patel Statue? Upcoming Shivaji Statue? This could easily run near a billion dollars. Meanwhile our artillery suffers. For a 10 times bigger economy, we don't even have TWICE the artillery pieces of Pakistan.

A billion dollar would have been quite useful in purchasing quite a bit of artillery pieces and ammunition.
 
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jetray

Senior member
Mar 15, 2018
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China will NOT give up its bullying habits

A withdrawal will be looked upon as
China having chickened out of a fight

So there will be a Next Time
Its not just bullying they want to claim all the lands and make it part of china. They will make soviet union and imperialists pale into insignificance.
 

Aurora

Well-Known member
May 18, 2020
382
263
India
Not really. There is still room for a long war if the belligerents are in equal strength. Things change only when unequal strength is applied, like the Russian interference in the Syrian War.

A Sino-India war can easily go on for a long time.

In case the Chinese are stopped at the border, they may try to outlast India through the consumption of men and material. The Chinese can keep it going indefinitely. So this can even go on for years.

I mean, why will the Chinese want to stop if they fail? The loss of face will be severe. They will instead want to keep it going until the Chinese public gets tired and will want the war to end. The only real way that's in our control to prevent such a situation is to create offensive units of our own, which will force the Chinese to rethink their next move after their initial failure. Hence the need for two MSCs of our own.
Years?? Really???
With what either of them will fight with??
Let me give you a recent example. During bombing ops against ISIS the armoury of entire NATO became almost empty. There were officials raising concerns that allies are using ammunitions much faster than it could be replenish. In the end Qatar had to open its armoury for NATO. It happened when only a fraction of Aircraft fleet was involved. That too against an irregular militia. Now think what would happen in a full blown war between world two largest army. We have only 30 days worth ammunitions. Chinese may have more but it won't last in any case for more than a couple of month. And NO it can't be replenished. If you still have doubts then check the recent orders of ammunitions by army and their delivery schedule. Then there is a problem of platforms. Everything from tanks to artilleries to aircrafts to warships and submarines from which you could use these ammunitions won't last more than a month. They will either get destroyed in a war or get useless due to the requirement of maintenance. Even if we do find a way to replenish the ammo stock there is no way in hell that we could replenish these platform. During WW2 US constructed 300000 planes in 6 years. Now a single plane takes 3 years for construction. Same is true for all other platforms. You simply would not be able to produce enough of them in right time to keep the war going. Then there is a cost factor too. Even if you find a way to assemble them from where would you get the money for it. For instance a single Bramhos costs 6 crore. You can't have say 100000 of bramhos simply due to cost factor. At most you could have their nber in couple of thousands which would be exhausted very quickly. Only way through which this war could go on for years is by fighting it through infantry alone armed with clones of AK, ammunitions of which being produced in households. But that is stretching too far. Most probably war would already have been ended much before that by escalating into a nuke exchange.

P.S : I have only presented one aspect of it. O have not touched on other subjects like lethality of present day precision munitions which could make enemy unwilling for war very quickly or the dependence on global supply chain for essential items to continue the war.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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First potential hint at what an infantry IBG may look like.

the Indian Army for the first time has deployed a squadron (12) T-90 missile firing tanks, armoured personnel carriers (APCs) and a full troop brigade (4,000 men)
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
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Years?? Really???
With what either of them will fight with??
Let me give you a recent example. During bombing ops against ISIS the armoury of entire NATO became almost empty. There were officials raising concerns that allies are using ammunitions much faster than it could be replenish. In the end Qatar had to open its armoury for NATO. It happened when only a fraction of Aircraft fleet was involved. That too against an irregular militia. Now think what would happen in a full blown war between world two largest army. We have only 30 days worth ammunitions. Chinese may have more but it won't last in any case for more than a couple of month. And NO it can't be replenished. If you still have doubts then check the recent orders of ammunitions by army and their delivery schedule. Then there is a problem of platforms. Everything from tanks to artilleries to aircrafts to warships and submarines from which you could use these ammunitions won't last more than a month. They will either get destroyed in a war or get useless due to the requirement of maintenance. Even if we do find a way to replenish the ammo stock there is no way in hell that we could replenish these platform. During WW2 US constructed 300000 planes in 6 years. Now a single plane takes 3 years for construction. Same is true for all other platforms. You simply would not be able to produce enough of them in right time to keep the war going. Then there is a cost factor too. Even if you find a way to assemble them from where would you get the money for it. For instance a single Bramhos costs 6 crore. You can't have say 100000 of bramhos simply due to cost factor. At most you could have their nber in couple of thousands which would be exhausted very quickly. Only way through which this war could go on for years is by fighting it through infantry alone armed with clones of AK, ammunitions of which being produced in households. But that is stretching too far. Most probably war would already have been ended much before that by escalating into a nuke exchange.

P.S : I have only presented one aspect of it. O have not touched on other subjects like lethality of present day precision munitions which could make enemy unwilling for war very quickly or the dependence on global supply chain for essential items to continue the war.

Yeaahhh... That's not how it works.

Most of the combat we will see in the mountains will be led by the army, not by the air force. So you will have to consider the way the army fights, and the replenishment rates of infantry and their gear. And no one's going to use nukes for what's merely a border conflict.
 

Aurora

Well-Known member
May 18, 2020
382
263
India
Yeaahhh... That's not how it works.

Most of the combat we will see in the mountains will be led by the army, not by the air force. So you will have to consider the way the army fights, and the replenishment rates of infantry and their gear. And no one's going to use nukes for what's merely a border conflict.
What is being said about AF is also true for army. All the gears of land forces like tanks and artillleries take almost an year to be produced in a significant numbers. Whereas they would be consumed within weeks. You also need to keep in mind that in a full blown war these manufacturing units would be one of the first target of enemies. Hence chances are you won't be able to produce more even you want to.
As for infantry, I don't have any problems if a war is fight with them only, even for ages. But that too would end quickly thanks to modern automatic rifles and explosives. Then you will need significant amount of workforce to produce tons of ammunitions which would be used by that force, And there are other factors too like feeding and providing proper clothing. Forget about protection as you won't be able to produce enough BPJs and BHs for them. Above all you would need to keep the economy going.
 
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randomradio

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Because :
a. North Korea for all its bravado has not militarily harmed US or even South Korea in recent past. How much cross border shelling happens on Korea LoC? How many cross border incursion happen on Korean LoC?
b. IF North Korea crosses the LoC and occupies or sends in infiltrators doing terrorist attacks, US will flatten it.






And you think North Korea doesn't fund, arm and equip terrorists in the Middle East against NATO interests?


Next up:

And then, can we talk about Iran and why US hasn't invaded Iran either? 4 times the population and 50 times the economy. Should I now list out all the terrorist-related activities of Iran?