LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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As of now, I hope the ADA get the FOC on time. Apparently, just 1 MK1 got delivered this fiscal, as per the article. Besides, as the CMD, if the FOC is delayed, the entire delivery schedule will go for a toss. Otherwise, they'd deliver 40 MK1 by 2022.

Moreover , it appears the MoD is also awaiting FOC before deciding on the order for 80 MK1A.

Then there's the MCA/MK2.

As of now, the AMCA appears to be a pie in the sky. Only @randomradio would think other wise.

Even the MCA is a pie in the sky as of today.
 

Ashwin

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Israeli firm bags electronic warfare suite deal for LCA Tejas

NEW DELHI: Israeli firm Elisra has bagged Rs 178 crore deal for developing the electronic warfare suite for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk1A aircraft being built for the Indian Air Force.

The Israeli firm was selected by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after issuing a multi-vendor tender in which around six to seven companies had participated, a senior Defence Ministry official told ANI here on Wednesday.

The official said the selection through a comprehensive process has helped in bringing down the cost of the electronic warfare suite.

“Development cost of the electronic warfare suite for the order placed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited works out to Rs 177.43 crore which will include three prototypes and other support equipment,” he said.

The Israeli firm has also been involved in developing the D-29 EW suite for the upgraded MiG-29 aircraft fleet of the Indian Air Force in collaboration with the Indian public sector company Bharat Electronics Limited and the DRDO.

Defence Ministry official said the D-29 could not be used for the LCA Tejas as there was a need for major redesign for putting it on the indigenous plane.

HAL officials said they had initiated talks with the BEL for redesigning the D-29 for the LCA Tejas but it was not able to provide a proposal for the complete electronic warfare suite.

The Defence Ministry official said the DRDO and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) also carried out a test to find out whether the D-29 could be used without modification on the LCA but the results found out that it was not “feasible”.
 
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randomradio

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I guess bit of disappointment from non delivery of any of the remaining SP aircrafts within this month.

The deliver of the IOC versions is on schedule though, so no worries in that department.

When it comes to MCA, unless something is flying, it's a pie in the sky. What I am confident about now is they now have the ability to deliver as promised.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Israeli firm bags electronic warfare suite deal for LCA Tejas

NEW DELHI: Israeli firm Elisra has bagged Rs 178 crore deal for developing the electronic warfare suite for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk1A aircraft being built for the Indian Air Force.

The Israeli firm was selected by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after issuing a multi-vendor tender in which around six to seven companies had participated, a senior Defence Ministry official told ANI here on Wednesday.

The official said the selection through a comprehensive process has helped in bringing down the cost of the electronic warfare suite.

“Development cost of the electronic warfare suite for the order placed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited works out to Rs 177.43 crore which will include three prototypes and other support equipment,” he said.

The Israeli firm has also been involved in developing the D-29 EW suite for the upgraded MiG-29 aircraft fleet of the Indian Air Force in collaboration with the Indian public sector company Bharat Electronics Limited and the DRDO.

Defence Ministry official said the D-29 could not be used for the LCA Tejas as there was a need for major redesign for putting it on the indigenous plane.

HAL officials said they had initiated talks with the BEL for redesigning the D-29 for the LCA Tejas but it was not able to provide a proposal for the complete electronic warfare suite.

The Defence Ministry official said the DRDO and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) also carried out a test to find out whether the D-29 could be used without modification on the LCA but the results found out that it was not “feasible”.

Debunks that Ajai Shukla crap about Elisra not being picked.

Man, when is he ever going to become a reliable journalist?
 
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Ankit Kumar

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MoD should stop giving preferential treatment to DPSUs if we want any kind of improvement. The Private entities need a level playing field actually, not only on paper. Once that is properly enforced, we will surely see results. It will also save us big amounts.

Plus bring in an ordinance to dissolve any kind of Labour Unions in Strategic DPSUs. Penalise DPSUs for delays and non delivery.

I am sure half of OFBs and even HAL will not survive another 5 years even.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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MoD should stop giving preferential treatment to DPSUs if we want any kind of improvement. The Private entities need a level playing field actually, not only on paper. Once that is properly enforced, we will surely see results. It will also save us big amounts.

Plus bring in an ordinance to dissolve any kind of Labour Unions in Strategic DPSUs. Penalise DPSUs for delays and non delivery.

I am sure half of OFBs and even HAL will not survive another 5 years even.

You can't do anything to the labour unions.

You can at best hope that the private players will destroy DPSUs through intense competition, but even that will take years to happen. At least now the govt can nominate private players also, and we won't see a repeat of instances like Reliance losing out on the Ka-226T tender based on mere technicalities.
 

Milspec

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MoD should stop giving preferential treatment to DPSUs if we want any kind of improvement. The Private entities need a level playing field actually, not only on paper. Once that is properly enforced, we will surely see results. It will also save us big amounts.

Plus bring in an ordinance to dissolve any kind of Labour Unions in Strategic DPSUs. Penalise DPSUs for delays and non delivery.

I am sure half of OFBs and even HAL will not survive another 5 years even.
Hi,

I respectfully disagree with your assessment although I am not a expert in MoD workings or for that matter to speak on DPSU's. I can speak about one DPSU, i.e. HAL to which I have had limited exposure to.

You have mentioned quite a few things here,
Level Playing Field: There is no such thing as level playing field in any market in any sector. If you are in any sector, you will have to compete with market leaders, which are often given preferential treatment by the government. Boeing and lockheed pretty much decimated the market in aerospace in the US, even if someone tries cannot compete with them within the ecosystem, same applies to EADS conglomerate. When you look at Indian markets who are the beneficiaries of liberalization of the defence sectors, Ambani's, Tatas, Godrej, Mahindra, Leyland, swaraj etc. All established business houses who have benefited from the same license raj for ages.
W.r.t to HAL, what happened for the C295 deal? HAL was kept out of project intentionally where is the C295 right now?

Savings:
Profits: A very simple equation; lets say OFB sells an AKM rifle for $400 to Indian forces, while Punjj Lyodd sells the same rifle at same price to indian forces, lets assume the margin on the product is 15%, this $60 instead of going to GoI goes to Punjj Lyodd, that remains the difference. This is the same way, HAL as a PSU returns close to 3000 cr to GoI YoY while if this work was diverted to Anil Bhai, which this dispensation might have done if there wasn't a media hue and cry; will be pocketed by the ambani's (and knowing the workings of ADAG, they might not even pay taxes on that and rather capitalize it). Same applies to MDL, CSL, GRSE, BHEL, BEL, BDL, BEML, OFB, BHEL, and BARC.

Economy Centers: Each PSU division of Indian government is over staffed as during it's inception they were seen as employment centers for the government of India; HAL as an example does the same for the region it serves, almost 50%-60% of the local economy is driven by the PSU, along with the rest of industrial complex in the city as suppliers and sub contractors.

Break Even: HAL/ other PSU's will routinely take up project as JDI projects, which make no business sense at all, as they are government controlled entities. HAL routinely looses money for supporting ISRO subsystems, and the shipyards have lost millions on servicing the two carriers we operated, would Ambanis do such a thing for national interest?

Dissolving Unions: India has it's union baggage from right from it's independence movement and union is big business with all political parties in the game, it a very tough cookie.

Penalties: I 100% agree that penalties should be slapped on all entities not just for delays, but also non-conformance to performance and offset clause. (that would include C130J and C17 deals, Admiral Gorshkov refit, Mig 29K delivery, R77 RVV AE performance failure, Kornet performance failure, Entire Rustom Program, Kamorta delays, Kolkatta class delays. etc)

Survival of OFB and HAL:
I am no fan of OFB, especially their ordnance division, but they do a heck of job with uniforms, drop tanks, fuel tanks, parachutes, tents, high altitude enclosures, large caliber systems, parachutes, etc. Firearms are actually is a very small percentage in their revenue pie. OFB's HVF have delivered high quality Tanks, IFV's and mobility systems which exceed the quality of imported systems. OFB India consists of 41 different factories, I will be quite surprised if Private manufacturers can compete aggressively enough to shutdown 41 debt free companies within 5 years, that would be an unprecedented feat in the business world.

As far as HAL, I truly do not think there is any business house in India that can even come close to technical competence of HAL, so i am really surprised to hear about fellow citizens thinking that a 27000cr mcap company with one of the largest cash reserves, a 25% ROCE and 2500 cr profits yoy, would shutdown in 5 years. I vehemently disagree on HAL's survival assessment, especially when Indian forces will employ HAL products for the next 3-4 decades. And now give HAL is functioning at it's best with developing systems like ALH Dhruvs MkIII, ALH WSO's, LCH, LUH's, HTT 40's, i really hope and pray that HAL doesn't give away an inch of it's existing business whilst fighting tooth and nail to dominate the market with it's existing business infrastructure. If anything I would love to see a Parrikar type leader in the shitblock empowering HAL to do with it does best.
 
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,711
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India
Hi,

I respectfully disagree with your assessment although I am not a expert in MoD workings or for that matter to speak on DPSU's. I can speak about one DPSU, i.e. HAL to which I have had limited exposure to.

You have mentioned quite a few things here,
Level Playing Field: There is no such thing as level playing field in any market in any sector. If you are in any sector, you will have to compete with market leaders, which are often given preferential treatment by the government. Boeing and lockheed pretty much decimated the market in aerospace in the US, even if someone tries cannot compete with them within the ecosystem, same applies to EADS conglomerate. When you look at Indian markets who are the beneficiaries of liberalization of the defence sectors, Ambani's, Tatas, Godrej, Mahindra, Leyland, swaraj etc. All established business houses who have benefited from the same license raj for ages.
W.r.t to HAL, what happened for the C295 deal? HAL was kept out of project intentionally where is the C295 right now?

Savings:
Profits: A very simple equation; lets say OFB sells an AKM rifle for $400 to Indian forces, while Punjj Lyodd sells the same rifle at same price to indian forces, lets assume the margin on the product is 15%, this $60 instead of going to GoI goes to Punjj Lyodd, that remains the difference. This is the same way, HAL as a PSU returns close to 3000 cr to GoI YoY while if this work was diverted to Anil Bhai, which this dispensation might have done if there wasn't a media hue and cry; will be pocketed by the ambani's (and knowing the workings of ADAG, they might not even pay taxes on that and rather capitalize it). Same applies to MDL, CSL, GRSE, BHEL, BEL, BDL, BEML, OFB, BHEL, and BARC.

Economy Centers: Each PSU division of Indian government is over staffed as during it's inception they were seen as employment centers for the government of India; HAL as an example does the same for the region it serves, almost 50%-60% of the local economy is driven by the PSU, along with the rest of industrial complex in the city as suppliers and sub contractors.

Break Even: HAL/ other PSU's will routinely take up project as JDI projects, which make no business sense at all, as they are government controlled entities. HAL routinely looses money for supporting ISRO subsystems, and the shipyards have lost millions on servicing the two carriers we operated, would Ambanis do such a thing for national interest?

Dissolving Unions: India has it's union baggage from right from it's independence movement and union is big business with all political parties in the game, it a very tough cookie.

Penalties: I 100% agree that penalties should be slapped on all entities not just for delays, but also non-conformance to performance and offset clause. (that would include C130J and C17 deals, Admiral Gorshkov refit, Mig 29K delivery, R77 RVV AE performance failure, Kornet performance failure, Entire Rustom Program, Kamorta delays, Kolkatta class delays. etc)

Survival of OFB and HAL:
I am no fan of OFB, especially their ordnance division, but they do a heck of job with uniforms, drop tanks, fuel tanks, parachutes, tents, high altitude enclosures, large caliber systems, parachutes, etc. Firearms are actually is a very small percentage in their revenue pie. OFB's HVF have delivered high quality Tanks, IFV's and mobility systems which exceed the quality of imported systems. OFB India consists of 41 different factories, I will be quite surprised if Private manufacturers can compete aggressively enough to shutdown 41 debt free companies within 5 years, that would be an unprecedented feat in the business world.

As far as HAL, I truly do not think there is any business house in India that can even come close to technical competence of HAL, so i am really surprised to hear about fellow citizens thinking that a 27000cr mcap company with one of the largest cash reserves, a 25% ROCE and 2500 cr profits yoy, would shutdown in 5 years. I vehemently disagree on HAL's survival assessment, especially when Indian forces will employ HAL products for the next 3-4 decades. And now give HAL is functioning at it's best with developing systems like ALH Dhruvs MkIII, ALH WSO's, LCH, LUH's, HTT 40's, i really hope and pray that HAL doesn't give away an inch of it's existing business whilst fighting tooth and nail to dominate the market with it's existing business infrastructure. If anything I would love to see a Parrikar type leader in the shitblock empowering HAL to do with it does best.

Unless the right private player is given contract, there wouldn't be much difference.

DPSU need to be up their work culture and management system, become international ly competitive..

Hope both sectors get it right.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,337
13,260
Mumbai
The deliver of the IOC versions is on schedule though, so no worries in that department.

When it comes to MCA, unless something is flying, it's a pie in the sky. What I am confident about now is they now have the ability to deliver as promised.
I thought the article quotes the CMD of HAL as saying if the FOC is in time, the production schedule of the MK1 will be on schedule. It's still an if... 3 days to go. I'm optimistic too, for a change. No , nothing to do with you.I guess, it's that time of the year.
 
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Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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Level Playing Field: There is no such thing as level playing field in any market in any sector.
Have to disagree here.

For example, take the case of Indian private shipyards. Its not a single market leader but the ecosystem of DPSU shipyards are the problem. They build up capacity with taxpayers money and its giving them huge benefits on price which a private player cannot offer.

Confronted with that question, Jayant Patil, L&T vice president who oversees its defence vertical explained how his company structured their bids. Working off a “basic material price”, L&T added to that labour cost and services, escalation, yard recovery, working capital costs, contingencies and a provision for warranty.

“Our final quote was about 1.7 times the basic material price, to cover the other costs. But our public sector competitors’ quotes were just 1.1 or 1.2 times the basic material price. Clearly, they did not need to factor the costs that we did,” said Patil.

What Patil left unsaid was what everyone in the industry knows: that public sector shipyards, which get most of their income from “nominated” orders from the defence ministry, enjoy enormous financial advantages in bidding against private shipyards.

DPSUs have financial buffers that accumulate from being able to cost “nominated” project lavishly, in a single-vendor environment, and obtain advance payments from the defence ministry that pile up into large cash reserves. Consequently, public sector shipyards incur no working capital costs and, in fact, earn billions in interest on their cash reserves. Last year, MDL’s cash reserves of Rs 8,363 crore (83.63 billion) generated Rs 765 crore (7.65 billion) under “other income”, turning an operating loss into a net profit. Meanwhile GRSE’s “other income” of Rs 227 crore (2.27 billion) enabled the shipyard to squeak out of the red and show a profit of Rs 12 crore (120 million) last year.

Nor are PSU shipyards burdened with infrastructure costs, since those have been built up over decades with taxpayers’ money. In contrast, private shipyards like Kathupalli and Reliance Defence’s shipyard at Pipavav, Gujarat, must service debt of Rs 50-100 billion (5,000-10,000 crore), which drives up their bids. The cost of commercial borrowings, which exceeds 15 per cent per annum, amounts to over 40 per cent of the cost of multi-year shipbuilding contracts.

Also allowing public sector shipyards to get away with quoting low is the permissive oversight of the defence ministry, which has never penalised them for time and cost overruns. Parliament’s Standing Committee for Defence reports show CSL’s budget to build an indigenous aircraft carrier swelled 593 per cent from the originally sanctioned Rs 3261 crore (32.6 billion) to Rs 19,341 crore (193.4 billion), while the build time rose by six-nine years. Similarly, in Project 15A to build three destroyers, MDL’s cost burgeoned to Rs 11,662 crore (116.62 billion), 325 per cent of the originally sanctioned Rs 3,580 crore (35.8 billion). In many such cases the defence ministry justified, and quietly paid, the excess.
Broadsword: Private warship builders live off scraps, while the figures tell the real tale
 
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randomradio

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I thought the article quotes the CMD of HAL as saying if the FOC is in time, the production schedule of the MK1 will be on schedule. It's still an if... 3 days to go. I'm optimistic too, for a change. No , nothing to do with you.I guess, it's that time of the year.

The FOC drawings were transferred to HAL in July.