JF-17 Thunder & PAF : Updates & Discussions

jetray

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Mar 15, 2018
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We should not take Any BVR capable Fighter lightly or else we will also loose our fighters like their F 16
(y) Agree, when you can take out your enemy with less risk even before they can see you thats a big advantage. Obviously only issue being identifying friend or foe correctly. Even the drones were under rated just treated as recon vehicles but now they are being given equal preference in battle field.
 
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Arsalan123

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Jun 3, 2019
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Based on the advertised range of the JF-17's new radar and the PL-15, it cannot use the PL-15 to its fullest capabilities. It will be lucky if it can compete with today's MKI radar, which is also not good enough for the PL-15.

Second problem is you can be sure the Chinese have downgraded your version of the PL-15.

Third problem would be the extent of the deterioration of detection and engagement ranges because of EW. Meaning the quality of its ECCM equipment.

Fourth problem is the JF-17 will have to operate outside the SAM ring of the S-400, which is very far away from the Indian border. The alternative being operating below radar horizon which gives your adversary the advantage.

Fifth problem is the small number of jets with AESA, and the time it will take to induct all 50 ordered.

Sixth problem would be the maturity of the hardware and software being used.

Seventh problem would be Pakistan's ability to network all its assets with next generation technologies that can help it utilise JF-17's capabilities.

I have identified seven problems that PAF has to deal with before engaging with the IAF. And I don't think the JF-17 is going to the answer to deal with all these problems. But all these are secondary problems, all the main problems PAF will face will show up when the IAF actually makes an entrance. You can fight the IAF only after solving these 7 problems first.
all seven problems are like more technical problems. air force knows this too. they aren't newbies who will use pl-15 with minimum radar support. they know what they are doing.we aren't going to make everything public. nobody does. you know iaf entered on 27th feb as well. mighty su-30, mirages and even mig-21 all were fully jammed. it's better for iaf to think before crossing. they are realities. you have to face it. there is nothing like invincible. network centric systems can deliver better that unorganized bunch of amateurs.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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all seven problems are like more technical problems. air force knows this too.

Yes, most of them are all technical problems, that's what makes it difficult for Pakistan. And none of those have been taken care of yet.

For example, to deal with the first and fourth problems, you need something else, not the JF-17. For the second and third problems, you need European tech, since you do not have your own indigenous industry to compensate. For the fifth problem, you need a larger budget, or material aid from someone else. For the sixth problem you need to give it a lot of time, perhaps a decade at the minimum. For the seventh problem, you do not have the R&D capability to deal with it, you are after all dealing with closed systems from two different countries.

Basically, none of these problems can be solved by PAF or Pakistan anytime soon. Someone else has to solve them all. Until you solve all seven problems, the PAF is incapable of fighting India even today let alone in 2024, when all the Block IIIs are inducted. And as time passes, the gap will only keep increasing. Your first and fourth problems are the most critical and neither of them can be solved by the JF-17, you need a high end jet.

India faced three of these seven problems until a few years ago. Since then 1 problem has been solved, while two are being implemented. Even we faced the first problem, it's actually a global problem, but is being implemented. Then, there's the fifth problem, but that's with respect to China, not Pakistan, and is being implemented.

Fast forward to 2025, when all the JF-17 B3s have finished induction, PAF will still be facing those 7 problems, while India will have none of them.

China is currently facing the third and sixth problems, but are being implemented.

they aren't newbies who will use pl-15 with minimum radar support. they know what they are doing.

The realities are different from what you have pictured. Even Gripen C uses Meteor, but cannot uses all its capabilities due to its radar limitations.

we aren't going to make everything public. nobody does. you know iaf entered on 27th feb as well. mighty su-30, mirages and even mig-21 all were fully jammed. it's better for iaf to think before crossing. they are realities. you have to face it. there is nothing like invincible. network centric systems can deliver better that unorganized bunch of amateurs.

Maybe you should ask the PAF why they vacated Kashmir then.
 

Arsalan123

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
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Sindh, Pakistan
Yes, most of them are all technical problems, that's what makes it difficult for Pakistan. And none of those have been taken care of yet.

For example, to deal with the first and fourth problems, you need something else, not the JF-17. For the second and third problems, you need European tech, since you do not have your own indigenous industry to compensate. For the fifth problem, you need a larger budget, or material aid from someone else. For the sixth problem you need to give it a lot of time, perhaps a decade at the minimum. For the seventh problem, you do not have the R&D capability to deal with it, you are after all dealing with closed systems from two different countries.

Basically, none of these problems can be solved by PAF or Pakistan anytime soon. Someone else has to solve them all. Until you solve all seven problems, the PAF is incapable of fighting India even today let alone in 2024, when all the Block IIIs are inducted. And as time passes, the gap will only keep increasing. Your first and fourth problems are the most critical and neither of them can be solved by the JF-17, you need a high end jet.

India faced three of these seven problems until a few years ago. Since then 1 problem has been solved, while two are being implemented. Even we faced the first problem, it's actually a global problem, but is being implemented. Then, there's the fifth problem, but that's with respect to China, not Pakistan, and is being implemented.

Fast forward to 2025, when all the JF-17 B3s have finished induction, PAF will still be facing those 7 problems, while India will have none of them.

China is currently facing the third and sixth problems, but are being implemented.



The realities are different from what you have pictured. Even Gripen C uses Meteor, but cannot uses all its capabilities due to its radar limitations.



Maybe you should ask the PAF why they vacated Kashmir then.
see project involves lots of discussion on technical problems. we don't need european technology now. do you seriously believe that we can't solve all these problems? why do we want pl-15 on jf-17? there must be a reason. chinese technology is now mature. i know indians still take chinese technology lightly. this is not true. they have evolved and both airforces know what they are doing. obviously there are solutions in place for all 7 problems but they don't want to make things public. i don't know what you are saying but i think paf can easily handle iaf. we are asking questions from a long time now but there are no answers from iaf.
who vacated kashmir? what are you talking about? a sam missile was fired on f-16, according to some sources from here. we dodged it. f-16s infiltrated deep, in poonch. where are you standing right now? half russian technology, half european and half probably american? is this your plan?
The Chinese must be really enjoying themselves working with these Retarded Pakistanis
right now, they are chinese civilians living in villages inside your ladakh. they love it. hahaha
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,981
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India
see project involves lots of discussion on technical problems. we don't need european technology now. do you seriously believe that we can't solve all these problems? why do we want pl-15 on jf-17? there must be a reason. chinese technology is now mature. i know indians still take chinese technology lightly. this is not true. they have evolved and both airforces know what they are doing. obviously there are solutions in place for all 7 problems but they don't want to make things public. i don't know what you are saying but i think paf can easily handle iaf. we are asking questions from a long time now but there are no answers from iaf.
who vacated kashmir? what are you talking about? a sam missile was fired on f-16, according to some sources from here. we dodged it. f-16s infiltrated deep, in poonch. where are you standing right now? half russian technology, half european and half probably american? is this your plan?

I don't believe Pakistan is capable of solving even one of those problems on its own. Everything else is just propaganda meant to deceive your masses.

The solutions to all the problems won't be secrets if implemented, it will be visible. There are a whole host of other problems that I haven't mentioned, and did not bring it up, due to secrecy and our inability to verify such news using open source. But the 7 problems I mentioned are easy to verify using open source, and Pakistan is nowhere even close to starting the process of fixing those 7 issues.

For example, the only immediate solution to problems 1 and 4 is the Gripen E. All other possible solutions are not available to Pakistan.

To solve problem 7, you need Italian assistance, but even if that happens, your primary fighter jet, the F-16, still won't be able to communicate with your Chinese jet. So both the F-16 and JF-17 will have to fight their own separate wars. Otoh, our "half russian technology, half european and half probably american" all work on one standard, so it's easy for us to get them to communicate with each other.

As for the maturity of Chinese systems, that's only possible if the Chinese start participating in tenders. Until their systems become mature, they won't have the face to enter such tenders. So that makes it quite self-explanatory. They only enter tenders where they know they can save face and protect their prestige. So until the JF-17 becomes a tender participant, you can be sure that it's not a mature system. Another option is to get a rich air force to invest in the JF-17, an air force that has other non-Chinese options, like the GCC. China is still far away from demonstrating the maturity of the next gen fighter jet technologies. Let's not forget how quickly PAF withdrew from Bahrain the minute LCA made an entrance.

The PAF vacated Kashmir right after the F-16 was shot down. It's the reason why the IA had a field day making pinpoint artillery strikes on PA positions since then. Our UAVs, with no ability to defend themselves, have been flying over PoK completely unchallenged. According to bilateral agreements, our UAVs shouldn't come closer than 10Km to the LoC, but you should have already seen UAV footage of IA artillery strikes inside PoK. That can't happen if PAF had a presence in the region.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,589
523
UK, Pakistan
Based on the advertised range of the JF-17's new radar and the PL-15, it cannot use the PL-15 to its fullest capabilities. It will be lucky if it can compete with today's MKI radar, which is also not good enough for the PL-15.

Second problem is you can be sure the Chinese have downgraded your version of the PL-15.

Third problem would be the extent of the deterioration of detection and engagement ranges because of EW. Meaning the quality of its ECCM equipment.

Fourth problem is the JF-17 will have to operate outside the SAM ring of the S-400, which is very far away from the Indian border. The alternative being operating below radar horizon which gives your adversary the advantage.

Fifth problem is the small number of jets with AESA, and the time it will take to induct all 50 ordered.

Sixth problem would be the maturity of the hardware and software being used.

Seventh problem would be Pakistan's ability to network all its assets with next generation technologies that can help it utilise JF-17's capabilities.

I have identified seven problems that PAF has to deal with before engaging with the IAF. And I don't think the JF-17 is going to the answer to deal with all these problems. But all these are secondary problems, all the main problems PAF will face will show up when the IAF actually makes an entrance. You can fight the IAF only after solving these 7 problems first.
I assume that you are fully aware that no air to air missile is ever used beyond 60% of its maximum range , right?
The advertised "Maximum range" for any SAM or Air to air missile is always the distance it can travel in a straight line or ballistic trajectory, and hit a static or near static target , such as a hovering helicopter, and without any counter measures.
Now keep throwing in variables , and to counteract those, the missile will consume energy, which comes from fuel, which is in limited quantity , and that drastically reduces the actual usable range.

A comparison can be made with your car. You foll up the fuel tank and the trip computer on the dashboard gives you a range of say 500km . But can you actually do 500km on one full tank?
That depends on many variables. Such as how was road and traffic, the route and turns and traffic lights.

Same for those missiles. Every turn it makes or course corrections it makes, bleeds energy, and reduces range.

For example, the advertised maximum range for AIM-120D is 160KM, but the NEZ or No Escape Zone is only 70km.
Same for Meteor which has NEZ of 90Km.

Firing the missile for targets beyond NEZ or just above, has no value on real combat.
 
Last edited:

Arsalan123

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
1,451
237
Sindh, Pakistan
I don't believe Pakistan is capable of solving even one of those problems on its own. Everything else is just propaganda meant to deceive your masses.

The solutions to all the problems won't be secrets if implemented, it will be visible. There are a whole host of other problems that I haven't mentioned, and did not bring it up, due to secrecy and our inability to verify such news using open source. But the 7 problems I mentioned are easy to verify using open source, and Pakistan is nowhere even close to starting the process of fixing those 7 issues.

For example, the only immediate solution to problems 1 and 4 is the Gripen E. All other possible solutions are not available to Pakistan.

To solve problem 7, you need Italian assistance, but even if that happens, your primary fighter jet, the F-16, still won't be able to communicate with your Chinese jet. So both the F-16 and JF-17 will have to fight their own separate wars. Otoh, our "half russian technology, half european and half probably american" all work on one standard, so it's easy for us to get them to communicate with each other.

As for the maturity of Chinese systems, that's only possible if the Chinese start participating in tenders. Until their systems become mature, they won't have the face to enter such tenders. So that makes it quite self-explanatory. They only enter tenders where they know they can save face and protect their prestige. So until the JF-17 becomes a tender participant, you can be sure that it's not a mature system. Another option is to get a rich air force to invest in the JF-17, an air force that has other non-Chinese options, like the GCC. China is still far away from demonstrating the maturity of the next gen fighter jet technologies. Let's not forget how quickly PAF withdrew from Bahrain the minute LCA made an entrance.

The PAF vacated Kashmir right after the F-16 was shot down. It's the reason why the IA had a field day making pinpoint artillery strikes on PA positions since then. Our UAVs, with no ability to defend themselves, have been flying over PoK completely unchallenged. According to bilateral agreements, our UAVs shouldn't come closer than 10Km to the LoC, but you should have already seen UAV footage of IA artillery strikes inside PoK. That can't happen if PAF had a presence in the region.
it's difficult to convince you but obviously i like technical knowledge which you have shared. i just want to tell you that pakistan is not alone and can't solve all problems alone. china is always there to help. you know this! no secrets. i understand that there is a problem for us with the rafale induction. let's say jf-17 can't handle it but f-16 can still handle rafale. block-52 has similar technology. also consider sensor technology. i believe through different systems on ground, we can easily detect rafale. su-30 is not a big deal for us. we handled su-30 and mirages quite effectively on feb27 so no fear now.

paf vacated f-16 after f-16 shot down? obviously this is your story but reality is abhinandan was treated well in our hospital and it is everywhere. we believe in reality and not on stories. recently a former politician said 300 killed in balakot. this is why our military don't trust politicians because they aren't sincere to the country and mostly corrupt.
this f-16 inside poonch was on ndtv and even su-30 shot down admission. what else do we need?
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,837
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France
hello. rafale first batch arrived at least two months ago. where is your rafale? i can't see any near border. just like musharraf made fun of india like indians WILL do this,this will HAPPEN WE WILL DO THIS, THAT ETC. lol
No need for Rafale to be near the border : the AESA radar can see JF17 at a 200km range and can fire Meteor to it with a NEZ of 60km and more, so 3 times those of the pak AMRAAM.
During this time, Rafale is unwatched from JF17 radar. it's as simple as that.
Have a nice day.
 

Arsalan123

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
1,451
237
Sindh, Pakistan
I don't believe Pakistan is capable of solving even one of those problems on its own. Everything else is just propaganda meant to deceive your masses.

The solutions to all the problems won't be secrets if implemented, it will be visible. There are a whole host of other problems that I haven't mentioned, and did not bring it up, due to secrecy and our inability to verify such news using open source. But the 7 problems I mentioned are easy to verify using open source, and Pakistan is nowhere even close to starting the process of fixing those 7 issues.

For example, the only immediate solution to problems 1 and 4 is the Gripen E. All other possible solutions are not available to Pakistan.

To solve problem 7, you need Italian assistance, but even if that happens, your primary fighter jet, the F-16, still won't be able to communicate with your Chinese jet. So both the F-16 and JF-17 will have to fight their own separate wars. Otoh, our "half russian technology, half european and half probably american" all work on one standard, so it's easy for us to get them to communicate with each other.

As for the maturity of Chinese systems, that's only possible if the Chinese start participating in tenders. Until their systems become mature, they won't have the face to enter such tenders. So that makes it quite self-explanatory. They only enter tenders where they know they can save face and protect their prestige. So until the JF-17 becomes a tender participant, you can be sure that it's not a mature system. Another option is to get a rich air force to invest in the JF-17, an air force that has other non-Chinese options, like the GCC. China is still far away from demonstrating the maturity of the next gen fighter jet technologies. Let's not forget how quickly PAF withdrew from Bahrain the minute LCA made an entrance.

The PAF vacated Kashmir right after the F-16 was shot down. It's the reason why the IA had a field day making pinpoint artillery strikes on PA positions since then. Our UAVs, with no ability to defend themselves, have been flying over PoK completely unchallenged. According to bilateral agreements, our UAVs shouldn't come closer than 10Km to the LoC, but you should have already seen UAV footage of IA artillery strikes inside PoK. That can't happen if PAF had a presence in the region.
it's difficult to convince you but obviously i like technical knowledge which you have shared. i just want to tell you that pakistan is not alone and can't solve all problems alone. china is always there to help. you know this! no secrets. i understand that there is a problem for us with the rafale induction. let's say jf-17 can't handle it but f-16 can still handle rafale. block-52 has similar technology. also consider sensor technology. i believe through different systems on ground, we can easily detect rafale. su-30 is not a big deal for us. we handled su-30 and mirages quite effectively on feb27 so no fear now.

paf vacated f-16 after f-16 shot down? obviously this is your story but reality is abhinandan was treated well in our hospital and it is everywhere. we believe in reality and not on stories. recently a former politician said 300 killed in balakot. this is why our military don't trust politicians because they aren't sincere to the country and mostly corrupt.
this f-16 inside poonch was on ndtv and even su-30 shot down admission. what else do we need?
No need for Rafale to be near the border : the AESA radar can see JF17 at a 200km range and can fire Meteor to it with a NEZ of 60km and more, so 3 times those of the pak AMRAAM.
During this time, Rafale is unwatched from JF17 radar. it's as simple as that.
Have a nice day.
wow it's so easy. 2 months now. see what happened with su-30. similar fate waiting for rafale. have a nice day! Tea ready!
Sweet arsalan is back!

One of my favourite posters of all time here :D
my love nilgiri xd.
 
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Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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For example, the advertised maximum range for AIM-120D is 160KM, but the NEZ or No Escape Zone is only 70km.
Same for Meteor which has NEZ of 90Km.
Meteor is of the same weight class than AMRAAM. A to D.
But Meteor just has to carry fuel, not oxydiser. So it has a far better range than a classial, even dual pulse, rocket engine.
No, the max range and more interesting, the NEZ, is not only sightly better on Meteor than on AMRAAM A, D or Z.

Official data on METEOR nez is > 60km, without more precision.
NEZ of AMRAAM C7 is 25km. I doubt AMRAAM D magically can improve that by 200%, with the same class technology (powder booster and same class of weight).
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,981
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India
I assume that you are fully aware that no air to air missile is ever used beyond 60% of its maximum range , right?
The advertised "Maximum range" for any SAM or Air to air missile is always the distance it can travel in a straight line or ballistic trajectory, and hit a static or near static target , such as a hovering helicopter, and without any counter measures.
Now keep throwing in variables , and to counteract those, the missile will consume energy, which comes from fuel, which is in limited quantity , and that drastically reduces the actual usable range.

A comparison can be made with your car. You foll up the fuel tank and the trip computer on the dashboard gives you a range of say 500km . But can you actually do 500km on one full tank?
That depends on many variables. Such as how was road and traffic, the route and turns and traffic lights.

Same for those missiles. Every turn it makes or course corrections it makes, bleeds energy, and reduces range.

For example, the advertised maximum range for AIM-120D is 160KM, but the NEZ or No Escape Zone is only 70km.
Same for Meteor which has NEZ of 90Km.

Firing the missile for targets beyond NEZ or just above, has no value on real combat.

That's not what the PAF thought when they decided to fire their AMRAAMs at Dmax. The most powerful air force in the world gives the greatest importance to AAM range. Most of their R&D is focused towards outsticking the enemy and gaining even the slightest advantage with range. The Russians are no different, which is why their AAM and SAM ranges continue to increase. The Chinese are headed the same route. So what's this special capability PAF possesses that goes against American and Chinese philosophy while using their technologies?

Without the ability to engage at Dmax, you cannot use the missile to its greatest ability.
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
1,426
670
Mumbai
No need for Rafale to be near the border : the AESA radar can see JF17 at a 200km range and can fire Meteor to it with a NEZ of 60km and more, so 3 times those of the pak AMRAAM.
During this time, Rafale is unwatched from JF17 radar. it's as simple as that.
Have a nice day.
Dont blabber this much, 200 km range for rafe and firing meteor at that range to get kill shot both will not happen.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,981
7,627
India
it's difficult to convince you but obviously i like technical knowledge which you have shared. i just want to tell you that pakistan is not alone and can't solve all problems alone. china is always there to help. you know this! no secrets. i understand that there is a problem for us with the rafale induction. let's say jf-17 can't handle it but f-16 can still handle rafale. block-52 has similar technology. also consider sensor technology. i believe through different systems on ground, we can easily detect rafale. su-30 is not a big deal for us. we handled su-30 and mirages quite effectively on feb27 so no fear now.

paf vacated f-16 after f-16 shot down? obviously this is your story but reality is abhinandan was treated well in our hospital and it is everywhere. we believe in reality and not on stories. recently a former politician said 300 killed in balakot. this is why our military don't trust politicians because they aren't sincere to the country and mostly corrupt.
this f-16 inside poonch was on ndtv and even su-30 shot down admission. what else do we need?

So PA said no one died in the Balakot strikes. Only some crows and trees. Now one of your officials, who is not a politician but a bureaucrat, said 300 died. India said more than 250 died. Have you considered PA is the one lying?

Similarly, have you considered PAF is the one lying about the F-16?

Similarly have you considered you are being lied to about the JF-17 as well?
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,589
523
UK, Pakistan
all seven problems are like more technical problems. air force knows this too. they aren't newbies who will use pl-15 with minimum radar support. they know what they are doing.we aren't going to make everything public. nobody does. you know iaf entered on 27th feb as well. mighty su-30, mirages and even mig-21 all were fully jammed. it's better for iaf to think before crossing. they are realities. you have to face it. there is nothing like invincible. network centric systems can deliver better that unorganized bunch of amateurs.
These long range missiles at long rangers are guided by AWACS not the aircraft itself.
 

jetray

Well-Known member
Mar 15, 2018
1,164
826
India
it's difficult to convince you but obviously i like technical knowledge which you have shared. i just want to tell you that pakistan is not alone and can't solve all problems alone. china is always there to help. you know this! no secrets. i understand that there is a problem for us with the rafale induction. let's say jf-17 can't handle it but f-16 can still handle rafale. block-52 has similar technology. also consider sensor technology. i believe through different systems on ground, we can easily detect rafale. su-30 is not a big deal for us. we handled su-30 and mirages quite effectively on feb27 so no fear now.

paf vacated f-16 after f-16 shot down? obviously this is your story but reality is abhinandan was treated well in our hospital and it is everywhere. we believe in reality and not on stories. recently a former politician said 300 killed in balakot. this is why our military don't trust politicians because they aren't sincere to the country and mostly corrupt.
this f-16 inside poonch was on ndtv and even su-30 shot down admission. what else do we need?

wow it's so easy. 2 months now. see what happened with su-30. similar fate waiting for rafale. have a nice day! Tea ready!

my love nilgiri xd.
Dont derail the discussion, if you have anything technical to say post on it. Your posts are entertaining but end up becoming annoyance in middle of a good discussion. Just keep it technical.
 
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lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
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Bangalore
These long range missiles at long rangers are guided by AWACS not the aircraft itself.
Are you sure long range missiles are guided by AWACS? If I am not wrong till date AWACS don't provide any type of guidance to AAMs especially the ones Pakistan have, their job is provide early warning of presence of enemy fighters and not guidance.
The technology for missile guidance from AWACS is nascent and is being developed now and only a few are capable and Pakistan doesn't have one...
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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These long range missiles at long rangers are guided by AWACS not the aircraft itself.

The pk will be extremely less.

AWACS guidance is useful only in two cases, one would be when dealing with cruise missiles, the other would be against an unsuspecting enemy. Against highly agile targets, it's going to be quite useless.

Also AWACS themselves are prime targets, so they will be more busy going cold than providing guidance. You need AWACS hidden within the EM environment rather than advertise their presence acting as a fire control like a lighthouse.