Is democracy a failure ? Alternatives to a democratic system in the future.

Avi

Administrator
Dec 1, 2017
244
340
India
Why democracy can be considered a failure in modern days is because it has become a marketing slug fest worldwide, couple that with the false promises , uneducated emotional voters , corruption and violation charges , propaganda machinery and a lot of other dirty politics.

"Indian democracy has matured" is the obvious narrative , but world-wide democracy is on the decline , do we have an equivalent system to replace it with in the future.

Lets not keep autocracy, theocracy, communism, feudalism as options , we have seen the worse of these.
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
The question actually needs to go further. Deeper.

Is nationhood a failed concept?

Do we need to rethink that first.

Cheers, Doc
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
The question actually needs to go further. Deeper.

Is nationhood a failed concept?

Do we need to rethink that first.

Cheers, Doc
So how should the world be organised ; if Not on the basis of nation states

Do you suggest something like Ummah or the Caliphate or the Vatican
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
So how should the world be organised ; if Not on the basis of nation states

Do you suggest something like Ummah or the Caliphate or the Vatican
Nation states are political constructs. Their boundaries drawn and guarded by man, ebb and flow.

It is how the world is structured today.

But it is in terms of time a very new concept.

The world is a lot older. As is mankind. And its societies. As are its wars.

There are very few living civilizations left in the world - with an unbroken lineage of Blood, Faith and Soil.

Faith on its own can hardly keep diverse people together. Christianity and Islam have proved it without doubt. As have the older faiths.

That leaves soil. But how much soil? Where does my soil stop and where does yours begin? What is the basis for that? History? Which history?

Blood? Is it the same, never-changing? Faith? A migration and redistribution?

Languages? But what does a language mean? You put a man or woman on alien soil and within a generation they will be speaking the native tongue.

Cheers, Doc
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
Nation states are political constructs. Their boundaries drawn and guarded by man, ebb and flow.

It is how the world is structured today.

But it is in terms of time a very new concept.

The world is a lot older. As is mankind. And its societies. As are its wars.

There are very few living civilizations left in the world - with an unbroken lineage of Blood, Faith and Soil.

Faith on its own can hardly keep diverse people together. Christianity and Islam have proved it without doubt. As have the older faiths.

That leaves soil. But how much soil? Where does my soil stop and where does yours begin? What is the basis for that? History? Which history?

Blood? Is it the same, never-changing? Faith? A migration and redistribution?

Languages? But what does a language mean? You put a man or woman on alien soil and within a generation they will be speaking the native tongue.

Cheers, Doc
Theoretically all this is correct but what about the Practical Needs of Security

All people know that when you are a small and divided society ;
you are an easy victim of aggression

This is what Human history especially Our Indian history all about

The primary need of security is what has created the nation state

People find something common and so come together

Even if Languages are different ; Religion AND culture can create commonalities

For example Europeans fought amongst themselves for Thousand years
But came together against Hitler and then Soviet union
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
Theoretically all this is correct but what about the Practical Needs of Security

All people know that when you are a small and divided society ;
you are an easy victim of aggression

This is what Human history especially Our Indian history all about

The primary need of security is what has created the nation state

People find something common and so come together

Even if Languages are different ; Religion AND culture can create commonalities

For example Europeans fought amongst themselves for Thousand years
But came together against Hitler and then Soviet union
I agree. And you have realized the motive behind this political construct. Security. Not economy.

But security for what?

Security for way of life.

So I believe there are natural nation states. And then there are unnatural nation states.

But it is a double edged sword. If you see wars of old and wars of the past 100 years.

With bigger more competent groupings, come bigger armies. And bigger wars. And bigger destruction.

Cheers, Doc
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
With bigger more competent grouping, come bigger armies. And bigger wars. And bigger destruction.

Cheers, Doc
Today wars have become very destructive and expensive
because of the Technologies involved

So nations maintain Armed forces only as a Deterrent against Invasion

The conflicts in the world are basically about resources and influence
All countries are fighting for a place under the sun

The Bigger powers want to maintain their stature and the new Upcoming powers
want to create space for themselves
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
Today wars have become very destructive and expensive
because of the Technologies involved

So nations maintain Armed forces only as a Deterrent against Invasion

The conflicts in the world are basically about resources and influence
All countries are fighting for a place under the sun

The Bigger powers want to maintain their stature and the new Upcoming powers
want to create space for themselves
Different nations have different priorities. And their wars and what drives them to war are also different.

Some nations work on the deterrent paradigm. But not all.

If you want to exert influence of your way of life, you have to project force. There is no other way - as the Chinese are also learning. Trade and commerce will get you only thus far - till a guy with a big danda comes along.

And to project force on foreign soil, away from the homeland, you need not just money and technology. You need people. And a large enough protected land base to arm and feed them. And for them to retreat to and hold should an existential threat ever be imminent.

Alien resources can always be controlled. But for that one needs to be on that soil controlling it. Not just remotely via technology.

Technology can destroy remotely. But if you want to preserve and hold, you need men. And the soil.

There is no substitute to men and soil. Or as a military man would say, boots on the ground.

Land and sea both berth and head to soil.

The soil and the people and your way of life are your nation.

Or your kingdom.

Or your civilization.

Blood. Faith (now replaced by way of life once all major faiths have been established and no new ones born for over a thousand years). And Soil.

Cheers, Doc
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
Different nations have different priorities. And their wars and what drives them to war are also different.

Some nations work on the deterrent paradigm. But not all.

If you want to exert influence of your way of life, you have to project force. There is no other way - as the Chinese are also learning. Trade and commerce will get you only thus far - till a guy with a big danda comes along.

And to project force on foreign soil, away from the homeland, you need not just money and technology. You need people. And a large enough protected land base to arm and feed them. And for them to retreat to and hold should an existential threat ever be imminent.

Alien resources can always be controlled. But for that one needs to be on that soil controlling it. Not just remotely via technology.

Technology can destroy remotely. But if you want to preserve and hold, you need men. And the soil.

There is no substitute to men and soil. Or as a military man would say, boots on the ground.

Land and sea both berth and head to soil.

The soil and the people and your way of life are your nation.

Or your kingdom.

Or your civilization.

Blood. Faith (now replaced by way of life once all major faiths have been established and no new ones born for over a thousand years). And Soil.

Cheers, Doc
You should analyse what is it that keeps Big Powers like US ; China and Russia
ONE Country and then you will get your answer
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
You should analyse what is it that keeps Big Powers like US ; China and Russia
ONE Country and then you will get your answer
Not convinced.

There have been superpowers through history, with greater span of control in terms of acreage and souls, which were not countries/nations.

The Greeks.

The Romans.

The Persians.

The Mongols.

The Arabs and the Turks.

Cheers, Doc
 

Srinivas

RED BERET
Dec 6, 2017
72
83
bangalore
Lets create kingdom of god or Ummah , convert to Islam or Christianity and worship Arabs or Europeans then !

Why democracy can be considered a failure in modern days is because it has become a marketing slug fest worldwide, couple that with the false promises , uneducated emotional voters , corruption and violation charges , propaganda machinery and a lot of other dirty politics.

"Indian democracy has matured" is the obvious narrative , but world-wide democracy is on the decline , do we have an equivalent system to replace it with in the future.

Lets not keep autocracy, theocracy, communism, feudalism as options , we have seen the worse of these.
 

Avi

Administrator
Dec 1, 2017
244
340
India
Lets create kingdom of god or Ummah , convert to Islam or Christianity and worship Arabs or Europeans then !
Not an option though , all the above are in decline and has proven failures. Looking more in the lines of reforming the democratic system to incorporate the changing times.
 

Marqueur

Forum Veteran
Nov 30, 2017
700
243
India
Lets create kingdom of god or Ummah , convert to Islam or Christianity and worship Arabs or Europeans then !
i hv better idea ... create a virus which destroys humanity ... no humans... no worship, no democracy, no dictatorship, no nothing ... problem solved ;):ROFLMAO::LOL:
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
Not convinced.

There have been superpowers through history, with greater span of control in terms of acreage and souls, which were not countries/nations.

The Greeks.

The Romans.

The Persians.

The Mongols.

The Arabs and the Turks.

Cheers, Doc
All of them were Kingdoms ; Autocracies ; Dynasties ; Families

Such systems cannot Function today

Even the Chinese system is called a Communist party of China with Thousands of Delegates and Representatives

And the reason for the Chinese system is the Homogenous society

Same is the case of Gulf countries

Russia too has One powerful leader but he is not creating a dynasty for himself

The historical kingdoms that you mentioned were People were Ruled by Fear

The moment a Group within these kingdoms realised that they can overthrow the ruler ; they did so and created a new Lineage

The Historical models cannot be applied today
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
i hv better idea ... create a virus which destroys humanity ... no humans... no worship, no democracy, no dictatorship, no nothing ... problem solved
What is the Hurry ? Humanity is not going to last this CENTURY

So eventually in the long run ; we are all dead :LOL:
 

vsdoc

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
1,878
330
my cave
All of them were Kingdoms ; Autocracies ; Dynasties ; Families

Such systems cannot Function today

Even the Chinese system is called a Communist party of China with Thousands of Delegates and Representatives

And the reason for the Chinese system is the Homogenous society

Same is the case of Gulf countries

Russia too has One powerful leader but he is not creating a dynasty for himself

The historical kingdoms that you mentioned were People were Ruled by Fear

The moment a Group within these kingdoms realised that they can overthrow the ruler ; they did so and created a new Lineage

The Historical models cannot be applied today
I was replying to your point of the superpowers of today being ONE NATION and hence superpowers.

Its a bit difficult debating with you ... no offense.

Cheers, Doc
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
I was replying to your point of the superpowers of today being ONE NATION and hence superpowers.

Its a bit difficult debating with you ... no offense.

Cheers, Doc
I am sorry ; But I think we are debating same issue from different perspective

There is no one good system for all countries

What matters is which system is suitable for creating a Strong ; United nation state
 

Srinivas

RED BERET
Dec 6, 2017
72
83
bangalore
Not an option though , all the above are in decline and has proven failures. Looking more in the lines of reforming the democratic system to incorporate the changing times.
Democracy is a flexible and one can reform it easily. It also gives balance and stability to a vast country like India.
 
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