Indonesia orders 42 Rafale jets from France

The KF-21 is a necessary project to achieve the target number of future fighters for the Indonesian Air Force. The F-15 and Rafale are very expensive fighters to fill that number. It is expected that Indonesia will not give up because the share of Indonesia's share in KF-21 development is very small compared to the F-15 or Rafale projects, which are close to $10 billion per project. However, some Koreans are concerned that Indonesia's future number of KF-21s, which may exceed the current target in the future, may be eroded by Rafale and F-15. Of course I don't think so.
KF21 will not be an affordable plane to fill the target number. 2 engines, AESA, low RCS, low know how (ie long testing)... = not affordable.
F-15ex has an overwhelming chance surviving chicom IADS than IAF MKI or french plane.
With a farm door RCS, it's unlikely.
But as an average american citizen, it's too difficult for you to mentaly accept a US product can't be the best.
 
KF21 will not be an affordable plane to fill the target number. 2 engines, AESA, low RCS, low know how (ie long testing)... = not affordable.

Indonesia, if they can afford 42 Rafales and 36 F-15s between 2022 and 2030, then it will be very easy to afford 50 F-33s from 2030 to 2040. They may even buy 100 by then.
 
Indonesia, if they can afford 42 Rafales and 36 F-15s between 2022 and 2030, then it will be very easy to afford 50 F-33s from 2030 to 2040. They may even buy 100 by then.
They have decently sized economy but I have huge doubts if they can afford both aircrafts. Indonesia is not a rich gulf state with surplus oil money. It's either the Rafale's or the f-15EX and looking at the f-15ID deal I have huge doubts if the indonesians will shell out that amount of money.
Even the Indonesian contribution in the kfx has been almost negligible. There contribution was as relevant as our contribution to the su-57
 
They have decently sized economy but I have huge doubts if they can afford both aircrafts. Indonesia is not a rich gulf state with surplus oil money. It's either the Rafale's or the f-15EX and looking at the f-15ID deal I have huge doubts if the indonesians will shell out that amount of money.

Even if it's only Rafales, they can still afford F-33 after 2030.

Anyway, if they can't afford $14B, possibly $12B, for 36 F-15s, they will just order 18 instead.

Always assume that countries know what they are doing when it comes to military purchases.

Even the Indonesian contribution in the kfx has been almost negligible. There contribution was as relevant as our contribution to the su-57

Can't compare the two.
 
Indonesia has a lot of political infighting that goes in the way of rational, optimized procurement decisions. Consider that their defense minister is a political opponent of their president, with all the petty maneuvering that this implies.
However, the case is not over in Indonesia: Mr Prabowo Subianto, the Indonesian Minister of Defence (23 October 2019) has stated before the Dewan Perwakilan Rakyat (DPR or People's Representative Council) - the lower house of the Majelis Permusyawaratan Rakyat (MPR or People's Deliberative Assembly) - that he does not want the contract signed in April 2019 to be executed.

In the background, it turns out that the Indonesian Defence Minister does not want the programme to be completed because the President of the Indonesian Republic, Mr Joko "Jokowi" Widodo (20 October 2014), whom he opposes, and who was re-elected in 2019, will reap all the political benefit of the successful execution of the MEF plan.

Hence, Prabowo Subianto's undermining of two programmes with South Korea: his action led to the failure to make timely payments for the DSME-1400 and the KAI KF-X fifth-generation fighter aircraft, whose Indonesian version is the IF-X.
 
KF21 will not be an affordable plane to fill the target number. 2 engines, AESA, low RCS, low know how (ie long testing)... = not affordable.

With a farm door RCS, it's unlikely.
But as an average american citizen, it's too difficult for you to mentaly accept a US product can't be the best.
The price of a pure fighter for one KF-21, claimed by KAI, the manufacturer of the kf-21, is $60 million. As a LOW RCS fighter, the KF-21 is price-competitive enough if it succeeds in defending the price they claim.
 
Indonesia has a lot of political infighting that goes in the way of rational, optimized procurement decisions. Consider that their defense minister is a political opponent of their president, with all the petty maneuvering that this implies.

He was unable to stop it though. Some people think they are big enough for their britches.

I see now no future for F15 in Indonesia. Too costly, too many Rafale purchased. Better to purchase some more F16 to fill the quantity.

It's unclear how Indonesia will react to the costs. The SH is an option.
 
The price of a pure fighter for one KF-21, claimed by KAI, the manufacturer of the kf-21, is $60 million. As a LOW RCS fighter, the KF-21 is price-competitive enough if it succeeds in defending the price they claim.

It will be very difficult to stick to that old price though.

The Air forces normally do. the politicians who make the decisions, not so much.

Regardless, they make the announcement after the politicians are onboard.
 
The price of a pure fighter for one KF-21, claimed by KAI, the manufacturer of the kf-21, is $60 million. As a LOW RCS fighter, the KF-21 is price-competitive enough if it succeeds in defending the price they claim.
No way it costs $60 million . The super-hornet itself costs atleast $80-150 million.
 
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The price of a pure fighter for one KF-21, claimed by KAI, the manufacturer of the kf-21, is $60 million. As a LOW RCS fighter, the KF-21 is price-competitive enough if it succeeds in defending the price they claim.
Maybe without R&D costs. Only production costs.... And even then, it's not so sure.
 
About Rafale, F-15, and Scorpène…

AsiaTimes, feb.18:
(…) Asia Times’ senior security correspondent Gabriel Honrada, who covered the Rafale fighter jet deal, isn’t sure the F-15 sale will go ahead. He explains why in this week’s Q&A.


How has France’s approach to Indo-Pacific relations changed following the establishment of the trilateral AUKUS alliance and where does Indonesia now fit into Paris’ strategic calculus?

France does not want to be left behind as an established global power after the establishment of AUKUS. They are the only European power with established interests in the Pacific, with New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, and French Polynesia being their territories in the region, with their interests focused on sovereignty, values, and diplomatic status.

As France cherishes its strategic autonomy, it is trying to build a network of defense partners independent of the US through engaging like-minded countries such as Indonesia. Indonesia’s decision to purchase Rafale jets from France establishes a tangible focal point of this defense partnership.

France and Indonesia are both wary of being drawn by the US into an aggressive confrontation against China given their strategic partnerships with the latter, and they have concerns of being reduced into US subordinate dependents.

Could France’s Rafale fighter jet deal with Indonesia cajole the US into making its pricier F-15 procurement proposal more attractive for Jakarta, which is still emerging from a pandemic-induced recession?

The US’ offer of F-15 fighters to Indonesia could be seen as a deal sweetener to scale up US-Indonesia defense relations, given Indonesia’s de facto leadership role in Southeast Asia and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), and its impeccable timing right after Indonesia’s decision to get Rafale jets from France. However, Indonesia may be wary of acquiring these jets from the US, as the US imposed an arms embargo on Indonesia in 1999 due to alleged human rights abuses in Papua New Guinea, which rendered its F-16 fleet inoperable. Clearly, Indonesia does not want a repeat incident, and this may have been its main reason for sticking to France for its fighter jet requirements.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is scheduled to visit Indonesia in March. I think this is part of the Biden Administration’s efforts to reassure US partners and allies after the Trump administration’s abrasive approach and the disastrous US withdrawal from Afghanistan. However, I expect more diplomatic and political reassurances than something concrete, possibly in the form of joint military exercises, which aim to shape Southeast Asian perceptions of the US as a reliable and committed partner as a form of insurance against China.


Indonesia is on a military modernization program spurred on by China’s assertiveness in the South China Sea, with the archipelagic nation aiming to build a modern naval fleet and acquire aircraft to support that fleet. Will Jakarta also look to France to acquire submarines and warships?

As Indonesia already has a technology transfer agreement with South Korea for its Type 209 submarines, I doubt Indonesia will go for France’s Scorpene-class. Having multiple suppliers of military equipment poses potential interoperability concerns and requires multiple training and maintenance programs which may add to complexity and cost.

Also, Malaysia operates the Scorpene-class, and it has an ongoing maritime territorial dispute with Indonesia over Ambalat in the Celebes Sea, which is believed to have significant oil reserves. Indonesia and Malaysia have had naval standoffs in this disputed area. If Indonesia chooses to acquire Scorpene boats from France, then Malaysia will have first-hand knowledge on the type’s capabilities and limitations.

 
About Rafale, F-15, and Scorpène…

AsiaTimes, feb.18:
(…) Asia Times’ senior security correspondent Gabriel Honrada, who covered the Rafale fighter jet deal, isn’t sure the F-15 sale will go ahead. He explains why in this week’s Q&A.


How has France’s approach to Indo-Pacific relations changed following the establishment of the trilateral AUKUS alliance and where does Indonesia now fit into Paris’ strategic calculus?

France does not want to be left behind as an established global power after the establishment of AUKUS. They are the only European power with established interests in the Pacific, with New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, and French Polynesia being their territories in the region, with their interests focused on sovereignty, values, and diplomatic status.

As France cherishes its strategic autonomy, it is trying to build a network of defense partners independent of the US through engaging like-minded countries such as Indonesia. Indonesia’s decision to purchase Rafale jets from France establishes a tangible focal point of this defense partnership.

France and Indonesia are both wary of being drawn by the US into an aggressive confrontation against China given their strategic partnerships with the latter, and they have concerns of being reduced into US subordinate dependents.

Could France’s Rafale fighter jet deal with Indonesia cajole the US into making its pricier F-15 procurement proposal more attractive for Jakarta, which is still emerging from a pandemic-induced recession?

The US’ offer of F-15 fighters to Indonesia could be seen as a deal sweetener to scale up US-Indonesia defense relations, given Indonesia’s de facto leadership role in Southeast Asia and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), and its impeccable timing right after Indonesia’s decision to get Rafale jets from France. However, Indonesia may be wary of acquiring these jets from the US, as the US imposed an arms embargo on Indonesia in 1999 due to alleged human rights abuses in Papua New Guinea, which rendered its F-16 fleet inoperable. Clearly, Indonesia does not want a repeat incident, and this may have been its main reason for sticking to France for its fighter jet requirements.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is scheduled to visit Indonesia in March. I think this is part of the Biden Administration’s efforts to reassure US partners and allies after the Trump administration’s abrasive approach and the disastrous US withdrawal from Afghanistan. However, I expect more diplomatic and political reassurances than something concrete, possibly in the form of joint military exercises, which aim to shape Southeast Asian perceptions of the US as a reliable and committed partner as a form of insurance against China.


Indonesia is on a military modernization program spurred on by China’s assertiveness in the South China Sea, with the archipelagic nation aiming to build a modern naval fleet and acquire aircraft to support that fleet. Will Jakarta also look to France to acquire submarines and warships?

As Indonesia already has a technology transfer agreement with South Korea for its Type 209 submarines, I doubt Indonesia will go for France’s Scorpene-class. Having multiple suppliers of military equipment poses potential interoperability concerns and requires multiple training and maintenance programs which may add to complexity and cost.

Also, Malaysia operates the Scorpene-class, and it has an ongoing maritime territorial dispute with Indonesia over Ambalat in the Celebes Sea, which is believed to have significant oil reserves. Indonesia and Malaysia have had naval standoffs in this disputed area. If Indonesia chooses to acquire Scorpene boats from France, then Malaysia will have first-hand knowledge on the type’s capabilities and limitations.


They seem to be looking for two or three different suppliers in each segment at the high end. So the Scorpene deal will go ahead, while they will build the Type 209 cousins from Korea, and they will probably build the KF-21s too.
 
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About Rafale, F-15, and Scorpène…

AsiaTimes, feb.18:
(…) Asia Times’ senior security correspondent Gabriel Honrada, who covered the Rafale fighter jet deal, isn’t sure the F-15 sale will go ahead. He explains why in this week’s Q&A.


How has France’s approach to Indo-Pacific relations changed following the establishment of the trilateral AUKUS alliance and where does Indonesia now fit into Paris’ strategic calculus?

France does not want to be left behind as an established global power after the establishment of AUKUS. They are the only European power with established interests in the Pacific, with New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, and French Polynesia being their territories in the region, with their interests focused on sovereignty, values, and diplomatic status.

As France cherishes its strategic autonomy, it is trying to build a network of defense partners independent of the US through engaging like-minded countries such as Indonesia. Indonesia’s decision to purchase Rafale jets from France establishes a tangible focal point of this defense partnership.

France and Indonesia are both wary of being drawn by the US into an aggressive confrontation against China given their strategic partnerships with the latter, and they have concerns of being reduced into US subordinate dependents.

Could France’s Rafale fighter jet deal with Indonesia cajole the US into making its pricier F-15 procurement proposal more attractive for Jakarta, which is still emerging from a pandemic-induced recession?

The US’ offer of F-15 fighters to Indonesia could be seen as a deal sweetener to scale up US-Indonesia defense relations, given Indonesia’s de facto leadership role in Southeast Asia and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), and its impeccable timing right after Indonesia’s decision to get Rafale jets from France. However, Indonesia may be wary of acquiring these jets from the US, as the US imposed an arms embargo on Indonesia in 1999 due to alleged human rights abuses in Papua New Guinea, which rendered its F-16 fleet inoperable. Clearly, Indonesia does not want a repeat incident, and this may have been its main reason for sticking to France for its fighter jet requirements.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is scheduled to visit Indonesia in March. I think this is part of the Biden Administration’s efforts to reassure US partners and allies after the Trump administration’s abrasive approach and the disastrous US withdrawal from Afghanistan. However, I expect more diplomatic and political reassurances than something concrete, possibly in the form of joint military exercises, which aim to shape Southeast Asian perceptions of the US as a reliable and committed partner as a form of insurance against China.


Indonesia is on a military modernization program spurred on by China’s assertiveness in the South China Sea, with the archipelagic nation aiming to build a modern naval fleet and acquire aircraft to support that fleet. Will Jakarta also look to France to acquire submarines and warships?

As Indonesia already has a technology transfer agreement with South Korea for its Type 209 submarines, I doubt Indonesia will go for France’s Scorpene-class. Having multiple suppliers of military equipment poses potential interoperability concerns and requires multiple training and maintenance programs which may add to complexity and cost.

Also, Malaysia operates the Scorpene-class, and it has an ongoing maritime territorial dispute with Indonesia over Ambalat in the Celebes Sea, which is believed to have significant oil reserves. Indonesia and Malaysia have had naval standoffs in this disputed area. If Indonesia chooses to acquire Scorpene boats from France, then Malaysia will have first-hand knowledge on the type’s capabilities and limitations.

Given the previous article on serious differences within the government , I'd say there's more of a likelihood of different interest groups being rewarded by their representatives in the government by reaching some sort of accomodation.
 
They were buying 100 SU-30 at one stage. Wait till you see the money for the 6, before anyone gets excited..
Apparently the French have no reservations about receiving coconuts & palm oil in barter for the jets sold . The latter would be used in the making of environment friendly bio fuel . I don't know what they propose to do with the former .

I wonder why doesn't Australia try something like that . Beer barter for the SH or Lightnings . Throw in Pauline Hanson to sweeten the deal along with the rest of One Nation & their supporters perhaps.
 
The reason Indonesia canceled the Sukhoi deal is entirely American: CAATSA.

So Uncle Sam unwittingly helped sell the Rafale to a new country! Of course they were very upset about. A high-ranked LockMart representative (Mike Kelley) even seemingly encouraged Jakarta to go ahead with the Sukhoi deal despite CAATSA!
"Building a fighter aircraft supporting ecosystem will be very expensive, not to mention infrastructure in the field, pilot training and treatment," said Mike Kelley as quoted by Lockheed Martin. In fact, it is better to purchase the Su-35 where Indonesia already has a supporting ecosystem as above so that if the Flanker E arrives then it can immediately set it with the Air Force.
 
I still maintain the AUKUS deal was less about some great strategic thought process but more about raking in the moolah.

The only way they could've done it was to propose sale of N submarines to Australia thereby playing on the immense inferiority complex the ordinary Aussie suffers whenever it comes up to the US & UK especially the former.

Nothing would've pleased junior more than being told they're now ready to join big boy league. The Aussie bureaucrats, politicians & generals may have been in throes of orgasmic euphoria on hearing the news. They still haven't completely recovered from it. They actually look & crave US &UK validation.

In many ways that's what the 5 eyes is all about with US driving the entire initiative with it's leadership, UK the seedy Svengali / eminence grise now increasingly in it's twilight years, Australia & Canada being the foot soldiers / menials & NZ frankly too insignificant to matter.

The Chinese instead of playing with the Aussie psychology first before infiltrating the system to dominate it made the mistake of trying to replace the US directly without understanding Aussie psychology.