Indo-Israeli LRSAM / Barak-8 /MRSAM

Hydra

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The Brahmos M and the Korean version are simply licensed versions of an existing Russian missile. The resized Russian version of Brahmos M finished development years ago.



So there's no point in comparing the industrial standards.



The Indian military is lagging behind the Korean military in deployment of this capability. The Indian MIC is ahead of the Korean MIC irrespective of their deployed capability.

I don't think we were ahead of the Koreans in many fields. They had a developed MIC before we did. Like, when we started the Arjun program, the Koreans were inducting their own tank. They already had a very well developed ship building industry before we even began, and so on. In some other areas, our priorities were different. For example, we chased after SSBNs, they chased after SSKs.

But when it comes to missile tech, they are woefully behind. Their CMs are foreign, their SAMs are foreign, their BMs are entry versions, and so on.
They developed things which can be used to actual war. Things like K9 Howitzers,black panther,bihoo Sam systems,asks,cms, top end destroyers etc. Where we focused on things which are not supposed to use or may not use items.
They will start test flying AMCA type fighter from next year onwards, they already presented it infront of IAF chief,trust me they will offer their product to IAF in few years. Where is our AMCA?
 

randomradio

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They developed things which can be used to actual war. Things like K9 Howitzers,black panther,bihoo Sam systems,asks,cms, top end destroyers etc. Where we focused on things which are not supposed to use or may not use items.

They focused on things that fight wars, we focused on things that end wars.

They will start test flying AMCA type fighter from next year onwards, they already presented it infront of IAF chief,trust me they will offer their product to IAF in few years. Where is our AMCA?

What they are working on is like a side job for us that we call TEDBF, and it's even harder 'cause it's for carriers. AMCA is far more advanced.

People need to stop comparing Korea and India, we are a generation ahead in pretty much everything that flies.
 

jetray

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People need to stop comparing Korea and India, we are a generation ahead in pretty much everything that flies.
farts.....fits of laughter....

BTW they just sold their SAM SYSTEM to UAE for whooping 3.4 Billion USD.

here is the news


South Korea and the UAE sign a $3.5 billion Air-defence missile deal​

1642404064889.png

2022-01-17

The head of the Defense Acquisition Program Department, Kang Eun-ho, told reporters Sunday in Abu Dhabi that South Korea has agreed to sell the Cheongju-2 medium-range surface-to-air missiles to the UAE.

An informed source told Bloomberg that the value of the deal amounted to 3.5 billion dollars.

The signing of the deal came on the sidelines of South Korean President Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE, and his meeting with Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid.

Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE is part of his tour of the Middle East, which will last a week and include Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The deal demonstrated South Korea's growing position as a growing source of technological and cultural exports. South Korea was the world's largest arms exporter between 2016-2020, according to the Korea Research Institute for Defense Technology Planning and Development.

During his visit to Dubai, the President of the Republic of South Korea and his wife Kim Jong Suk witnessed their country's celebration of its National Day at Expo 2020 Dubai, as part of his country's promotion to host Expo 2030


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...iles-on-mideast-trip?srnd=premium-middle-east

Cheolmae II / Cheongung (Iron Hawk)
M-SAM Medium Surface to Air Missile


Cheongung Block 2 Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (KM-SAM)


1642404375241.png




The United Arab Emirates said Tuesday that it will buy mid-range missiles from South Korea in what would be Seoul’s largest arms sale worth nearly 4 trillion won ($3.5 billion).

The Middle East country would be the first to purchase the surface-to-air Korean missile overseas, known as Cheongung, which local reports there described it as one of the most advanced in the world that will improve the quality of the UAE’s missile defense.


1642404948031.png


The Cheongung series, deployed in 2015 to hit targets flying 15 kilometers high and below, complement Korea’s missile defense, through which a Patriot missile intercepts threats flying as high as 20 kilometers, while the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system eyes targets at least 40 kilometers high.

The Chengung series comes in two versions – one for aircraft and the other for ballistic missiles. Abu Dhabi is buying the second version to bolster its air defense, though it did not elaborate on how many missiles it is bringing in to upgrade it.

A complete Cheongung battery comprises a transporter launcher carrying eight missiles with a flight range of 40 kilometers, radar and a command vehicle. The Cheongung series is believed to be able to withstand extreme weather conditions and electromagnetic interference.

The Cheongung reportedly outperforms the US-made Patriot system because it is quicker to aim at a second target after the initial fire.

S. Korea sells missiles to UAE in record arms sale

Some high quality videos from YT



They test their systems very comprehensively.
Impressive, we should score a deal like this it will help our defence industry a great deal. Seems after getting pissed of from US they are looking at other countries to get advanced weapons.
 

_Anonymous_

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O boy o boy !! It's just the 19th day of the first month of the year & I'm seeing optimism of such high quality that no drug or alcohol generated euphoria can match , optimism of the kind that even the most schizoid would shy away from displaying.

I can actually see one AMCA defeat the J-20 , F-35 , F-22 , NGAD , Su-57 , Tempest , FCAS , the Japanese & South Korean 5th Gen fighters( hope all 5th 6th & 7th Gen fighters have been accounted for ) all together single handedly .

Don't blame me . This optimism is more heady & infectious than Omicron.

I wonder what does the rest of the year have in store. I've a feeling 2022 is going to be the most memorable year for the rest of our lives.
 
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Arctic Wolf

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What they are working on is like a side job for us that we call TEDBF
However, the KF-21 is scheduled for mass production by 2026.

By 2032, they will have 120 KF-21s; 40 of Block 1 and 80 of Block 2. As many in Korean defense forums and websites have pointed out, the KF-21 project will probably evolve into a 5th gen fighter in later blocks (they do point at things like space reserved for IWB, attention to stealth shaping etc.). So by 2032, they may as well have a functioning 5th gen design for production.

And Indian projects do face substantial delays.
AMCA is far more advanced.
Yeah, AMCA is more advanced because at present, its a 5th gen design. But I'm not sure if its due to the engine, or the weapons, or the electronics or the radar. Could you clarify?
People need to stop comparing Korea and India, we are a generation ahead in pretty much everything that flies.
I think, we are far ahead in ballistic missiles.

Their mid-range/long-range SAMs are comparable, if not better than ours -

1. K-SAAM Haegung - VL-SRSAM
2. KM-SAM Block 1/2 - MR-SAM
3. L-SAM - XR-SAM/S-400
4. LAMD -

What they don't have are dedicated BMD systems.

Their cruise missiles are comparable -

1. Hyunmoo 3 - LR-LACM
2. "Brahmos copy" - Brahmos

So, they are 1/2 generations behind in BMs and AAMs (and BMD missiles like our PDV/AD1/AD2).

In hypersonic tech, we have tested our HSTDV, they will test their Hycore this year (and their development cycles are usually shorter), and both countries are planning for deployment in similiar time frames i.e. around 2024-25/26. So, not much to say.

In drones, I'd say both us and the Koreans have comparable projects (Rustom - MUAV, Ghatak - KUS-FC etc.). But our stealth prototype (SWIFT) hasn't entered flight tests yet (it was doing taxi trials iirc) while their stealth prototype (KAORI-X) has already been flown.

So, broadly we are ahead in many things that fly. But we're not ahead in everything.
 
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Lolwa

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Why do you think that it’s a S400 copy ? It’s a MRSAM System similar to Barak SAM system of Israel or MRSAM of DRDO-IAI. S400 is much more complex system
It's closer to Akash ng in capabilities. It just one of the shorter missiles of the s400 it's based on. Just 40 km range. Akash NG will be superior to it
 

randomradio

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However, the KF-21 is scheduled for mass production by 2026.

By 2032, they will have 120 KF-21s; 40 of Block 1 and 80 of Block 2. As many in Korean defense forums and websites have pointed out, the KF-21 project will probably evolve into a 5th gen fighter in later blocks (they do point at things like space reserved for IWB, attention to stealth shaping etc.). So by 2032, they may as well have a functioning 5th gen design for production.

And Indian projects do face substantial delays.

The Koreans are getting a lot of "direct" help from other countries. Like the T-50's FBW was developed by LM and the Koreans have picked up from there. KF-21's AESA radar is coming with French tech after the Americans denied it to them. EW from Israel. And so on. They are getting foreign help in pretty much every critical technology.

Yeah, AMCA is more advanced because at present, its a 5th gen design. But I'm not sure if its due to the engine, or the weapons, or the electronics or the radar. Could you clarify?

Airframe of course.

Their mid-range/long-range SAMs are comparable, if not better than ours -


1. K-SAAM Haegung - VL-SRSAM
2. KM-SAM Block 1/2 - MR-SAM
3. L-SAM - XR-SAM/S-400
4. LAMD -

What they don't have are dedicated BMD systems.

Their cruise missiles are comparable -

1. Hyunmoo 3 - LR-LACM
2. "Brahmos copy" - Brahmos

So, they are 1/2 generations behind in BMs and AAMs (and BMD missiles like our PDV/AD1/AD2).

In hypersonic tech, we have tested our HSTDV, they will test their Hycore this year (and their development cycles are usually shorter), and both countries are planning for deployment in similiar time frames i.e. around 2024-25/26. So, not much to say.

In drones, I'd say both us and the Koreans have comparable projects (Rustom - MUAV, Ghatak - KUS-FC etc.). But our stealth prototype (SWIFT) hasn't entered flight tests yet (it was doing taxi trials iirc) while their stealth prototype (KAORI-X) has already been flown.

So, broadly we are ahead in many things that fly. But we're not ahead in everything.

Most of what they have is imported.
 

Arctic Wolf

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KF-21's AESA radar is coming with French tech
Any source for this?

Cause all sources I have read (links given below) do not mention anything about any French involvement (while they do mention that Israel helped with testing the radar)-

1. Janes - South Korea unveils indigenous AESA radar prototype for KF-X fighter

2. The second report from Yonhap News is even more compelling (para 5) -
"There has been skepticism about whether it could be developed successfully at home without technology transfer from overseas, but we finally made it," DAPA official Choi Ho-cheon said during a ceremony to mark the release of the prototype.
That doesn't indicate French involvement in the radar.
EW from Israel.
Again, any source?

Because a few sources that I have come across make no mention of any Israel help. Janes only reports that the EW suite was developed and delivered by LiG Nex1.
Airframe of course.
In its present form, yes. But as stated previously, most Korean defense websites and forums speculate that the KF-21's airframe has been designed with reserved space for IWB, conformal antennae, better radars etc.
Most of what they have is imported.
None of the systems I listed and compared are imported. If they are, please specify.
 
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randomradio

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Any source for this?

Cause all sources I have read (links given below) do not mention anything about any French involvement (while they do mention that Israel helped with testing the radar)-

1. Janes - South Korea unveils indigenous AESA radar prototype for KF-X fighter

2. The second report from Yonhap News is even more compelling (para 5) -

That doesn't indicate French involvement in the radar.

Again, any source?

Because a few sources that I have come across make no mention of any Israel help. Janes only reports that the EW suite was developed and delivered by LiG Nex1.

In its present form, yes. But as stated previously, most Korean defense websites and forums speculate that the KF-21's airframe has been designed with reserved space for IWB, conformal antennae, better radars etc.

None of the systems I listed and compared are imported. If they are, please specify.

South Korean defense manufacturer Hanwha Thales is building its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Saab has received an order for support of algorithm development and evaluation of airborne AESA radar for South Korea’s indigenous KF-X fighter jet.

Basically the radar is being developed with a combination of Thales, Elbit and Saab. Thales is providing some of the hardware, and Saab is helping develop the software. The DAPA official is talking about how they managed to collaborate and develop their own IP instead of just importing the radar directly, even if the radar has significant imports. AFAIK, the signal processor is from Elbit, not sure if it has been replaced yet.

Hell, even the canopy is coming from the US.

LM is deeply involved in the development of the KF-21 through the F-35 program as a technology partner. The Pentagon denied the Koreans access to 4 critical technologies, so they are getting all 4 from other countries in different ways.

In April 2015, the US denied export licenses for the four core technologies, which were:

-active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars
-infrared search and track (IRST)
-electro-optical target tracking devices
-RF Jammers


So their plan was to directly import them from the US, which instead turned into a mix of imports and/or development with the Europeans and Israelis. The Koreans got everything else they wanted from the US.

What some Indonesian commentators have said:
While it has widely been reported that the KF-21 is about 65% indigenous, Chacko argues that most of the “subsystems have been either developed with the help of foreign partners or have foreign components within the subsystems.”

The Koreans are basically doing what we did with MKI, Mig-29, Jaguar, LCA Mk1 etc more than 15 years ago. So today we have core avonics that are more Indian than foreign compared to what's going into the KF-21.

In its present form, yes. But as stated previously, most Korean defense websites and forums speculate that the KF-21's airframe has been designed with reserved space for IWB, conformal antennae, better radars etc.

As per the Koreans, the KF-21 is divided into three different blocks. Block 1 is a Rafale-Typhoon equivalent. Block 2 brings in an IWB and reduces RCS by a magnitude, similar to the F-117. Block 3 is their F-35 equivalent. But they also say there's a pretty good chance the program may not proceed to Block 3. So, at this time, the KF-21 is more or less equivalent to TEDBF.
 

Arctic Wolf

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Block 3 is their F-35 equivalent. But they also say there's a pretty good chance the program may not proceed to Block 3. So, at this time, the KF-21 is more or less equivalent to TEDBF.
That is correct. But honestly, it makes no sense for them to invest in features that would give them a Block 3 aircraft if they won't proceed. But they may proceed after all, because iirc (and sorry, i'll have to search from Bemil Chosun for links), they plan to replace their older F-16s by the 2030s, which they will do with this Block 3, which they may also use on a (possible) 2nd aircraft carrier.

Thanks for the links abt the AESA radars.

I was wrong once, so that maybe the case again here. But are the SAM/missile/drone systems I listed and compared imported?
 

randomradio

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That is correct. But honestly, it makes no sense for them to invest in features that would give them a Block 3 aircraft if they won't proceed. But they may proceed after all, because iirc (and sorry, i'll have to search from Bemil Chosun for links), they plan to replace their older F-16s by the 2030s, which they will do with this Block 3, which they may also use on a (possible) 2nd aircraft carrier.

I don't know what the endgame is for Block 3. If it takes too long, it can get superceded by new designs. They are following the Chinese model, where they develop an early block and then build those quickly for a few years before progressing to the next block, which would be developed in the meantime. So, if they feel the Block 3 is not relevant by the late 2030s, they may very well cancel it for something else.

No clue about the KF-21 being part of their carrier plans.

I was wrong once, so that maybe the case again here. But are the SAM/missile/drone systems I listed and compared imported?

The missiles are Russian. Dunno about the radars and such, meaning the amount of foreign collaboration involved. Nothing wrong with it though, the Koreans are doing well indigenising foreign tech, we did the same before they did, albeit with significantly greater tech denial. They are even working on modifying the 48N6 as an exo-atmospheric BMD through their L-SAM program.
 

Hydra

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The Koreans are getting a lot of "direct" help from other countries. Like the T-50's FBW was developed by LM and the Koreans have picked up from there. KF-21's AESA radar is coming with French tech after the Americans denied it to them. EW from Israel. And so on. They are getting foreign help in pretty much every critical technology.



Airframe of course.



Most of what they have is imported.
Why we failed for such collaboration? Is it because DRDO's adamant nature or ego, because of mistrust on india, or lack of money to buy?

Also if things goes asper plan, their fighter will be inducted much before TDBF.
 

randomradio

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Why we failed for such collaboration? Is it because DRDO's adamant nature or ego, because of mistrust on india, or lack of money to buy?

We were part of NAM, not interested in alliances. Mistrust was obvious.

Also if things goes asper plan, their fighter will be inducted much before TDBF.

KF-21 started years ago. We aren't competing with the Koreans.
 
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randomradio

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Making blanket statements like "we are better at everything flying" is not knowledge but a lack of what you don't know. More knowledge will only make you question things.

Wow, the inferiority complex amongst Ignorants is sky high. It's probably become an infectious disease. The default position has become "we suck", even though DRDO and IAF make claims that come from people who drink the Kool-Aid every single day.

DRDO: We will have AMCA by 2032.
IAF: We will have AMCA by 2035.
Me: Let's chill on the dates, just call it "by 2040" and be done with it.

DRDO and IAF: Due to AMCA, we will no longer need to import fighter jets.
Me: Yeah, I'm not convinced. We will still need a mature stop gap measure within the next 10 years, unless more info comes out.

Hell, if you consider I am optimistic, then what do you think about the IAF and DRDO?

People have gotta address the ridiculous amounts of inferiority complex some members have. It's quite literally cringe-worthy.

We have a robust space program, even a manned mission is going on, the Koreans have nothing. We make our own missiles, the Koreans import. Their best BM is just a side project for us. Their best fighter jet is also a side project for us. We have own our ramjet and scramjet projects, the Koreans have nothing. Hell, we have even developed our own aeroengine, the Koreans have nothing. The "facts" speak for themselves. You don't need to have "knowledge" to know these things. Forget deep analysis, some of you guys can't even understand basic stuff that's staring in your face.
 

Tatvamasi

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Wow, the inferiority complex amongst Ignorants is sky high. It's probably become an infectious disease. The default position has become "we suck", even though DRDO and IAF make claims that come from people who drink the Kool-Aid every single day.

DRDO: We will have AMCA by 2032.
IAF: We will have AMCA by 2035.
Me: Let's chill on the dates, just call it "by 2040" and be done with it.

DRDO and IAF: Due to AMCA, we will no longer need to import fighter jets.
Me: Yeah, I'm not convinced. We will still need a mature stop gap measure within the next 10 years, unless more info comes out.

Hell, if you consider I am optimistic, then what do you think about the IAF and DRDO?

People have gotta address the ridiculous amounts of inferiority complex some members have. It's quite literally cringe-worthy.

We have a robust space program, even a manned mission is going on, the Koreans have nothing. We make our own missiles, the Koreans import. Their best BM is just a side project for us. Their best fighter jet is also a side project for us. We have own our ramjet and scramjet projects, the Koreans have nothing. Hell, we have even developed our own aeroengine, the Koreans have nothing. The "facts" speak for themselves. You don't need to have "knowledge" to know these things. Forget deep analysis, some of you guys can't even understand basic stuff that's staring in your face.
Any Indian defense watcher who has reached puberty knows Indian timelines are useless. Every major program of the last generation was at least a decade late Arjun, LCA to Akash. So, yes past suggests "we suck" in giving timelines. And anyone else saying otherwise is just an simpleton who refuses to grow up.

It doesn't matter if you have a space program or the world's biggest statue. You cannot correlate it to "we are better at everything flying". South Korea is one of the world leaders in Electronics, telecommunications, automobiles, and shipbuilding. We are in none of these. We are not good at manufacturing physical goods. All these years they choose not to focus on military/space R&D which now they are doing. They had other priorities. (Still, they have exported more fighter aircraft than HAL!.)

They have every foundational technology, scale from the civil industry, skilled manpower, and money to invest in. They already invest twice in R&D than us in defense. Looking down on them because they choose to work with partners on technologies that are already matured like AESA is just naivety. Maybe its precisely because they care more about "timelines" than us !. Maybe, they care more about having a functional fighter than calling it "indigenous". We couldn't make a reliable airborne pulse-doppler on time for LCA now getting their panties up yet to operationalize AESA radar. The Koreans are flight testing one just 5 years after US said no to import. The point is, they have all the possible resources and they can reach every technological achievement if they want to in double time.
 
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randomradio

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Any Indian defense watcher who has reached puberty knows Indian timelines are useless. Every major program of the last generation was at least a decade late Arjun, LCA to Akash. So, yes past suggests "we suck" in giving timelines. And anyone else saying otherwise is just an arrogant simpleton who refuses to grow up.

It doesn't matter if you have a space program or the world's biggest statue. You cannot correlate it to "we are better at everything flying". South Korea is one of the world leaders in Electronics, telecommunications, automobiles, and shipbuilding. We are in none of these. We are not good at manufacturing physical goods. All these years they choose not to focus on military/space R&D which now they are doing. They had other priorities. Still, they have exported more fighter aircraft than HAL!.

They have every foundational technology, scale from the civil industry, skilled manpower, and money to invest in. They already invest twice in R&D than us in defense. Looking down on them because they choose to work with partners on technologies that are already matured like AESA is just naivety. Maybe its precisely because they care more about "timelines" than us !. Maybe, they care more about having a functional fighter than calling it "indigenous". We couldn't make a reliable airborne pulse-doppler on time for LCA now getting their panties up yet to operationalize AESA radar. The Koreans are flight testing one just 5 years after US said no to import. The point is, they have all the possible resources and they can reach every technological achievement if they want to in double time.

Yep, yep...

"Wow, the inferiority complex amongst Ignorants is sky high."

"Forget deep analysis, some of you guys can't even understand basic stuff that's staring in your face."

Both confirmed in a single post.

Seriously, solve the first issue, it's more important for basic functioning as an adult. The second one doesn't matter, it's not your cup of tea.
 

Arctic Wolf

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Me: Let's chill on the dates, just call it "by 2040" and be done with it.
Before starting an argument, are you talking about AMCA Mk 1 or Mk2 here?
We have a robust space program, even a manned mission is going on, the Koreans have nothing.
Sure.
We make our own missiles, the Koreans import.
The KM-SAM, L-SAM, Hyunmoo-3, Cheonryong, Brahmos copy etc. don't count as imports; Patriots, AAMs, Taurus etc. do. There is a distinction.
Their best BM is just a side project for us.
This I've never argued, because beyond Russia, USA and China, India has the most expansive BM programs in the world.
Their best fighter jet is also a side project for us.
Well, probably not. TEDBF may be more comparable to KF-21 Block1 but ig it'll be inferior to the Block2. Not to mention, TEDBF will be inducted by 2032 (that's the schedule and we don't have a great record with schedules), while KF-21 Block2 will probably end production by 2032 (40 Block1 by 2028, 80 Block2 by 2032).

In the interim measure, the Koreans are developing tech required to make a future KF-21 Block3 i.e. their F-35 equivalent (not official except for a few comments by KAI officials). So, should they go for a Block 3, they'll have their AMCA Mk1 analogue not too behind AMCA. Now, this is all speculation, so take it as you will.
We have own our ramjet and scramjet projects, the Koreans have nothing.
Apparently they do.

First about scramjets -

1. they had tested components of scramjet in 2008 -

The Korea Aerospace Research Institute (President Paik Hong-yul, KARI) has announced that it has successfully performed the testing of a supersonic air intake and sonic burner, key components of the next generation Supersonic Scramjet engine. The testing took place in September and October, 2008.
and
The tested Scramjet engine components for the Mach 6.7 level engine were designed and developed by KARI.
2. their Hycore prototype uses a scramjet engine -

According to DongaIlbo and BizHankook, Hycore uses a cramjet and its maiden test is scheduled for this year. So, if the 2 newspapers are to be trusted, given that they will test their missile this year itself and that they have been dabbling in that tech since 2008, its probably safe to assume that they have a functional scramjet engine.

Now, ChosunIlbo cites some sources corroborating that Hycore has a scramjet engine, while some other sources say that Hycore is gonna use a dual mode ramjet or double ramjet (got lost in google translate). So, by this year, we'll probably know about that.

Now coming to drones, as I've said earlier, both India and Korea have comparable systems. But they have built a prototype for their KUS-FC called the KAORI-X and have flown it (apparently to validate control algorithms), while SWIFT is in taxi trials. So you can probably say, this is one of the things that fly that we aren't a gen. ahead.

Finally, it isn't about inferiority complex. For some people like me (and I dunno abt you, but I'm relatively young and thus, new in this), watching them go from not having a half decent green water navy to building one of the largest naval forces would have that effect. Like, they didn't have a proper submarine until 1993. Now, they're building some of the best conventional submarines and in good numbers no less. They didn't have a destroyer until 1998; they'll have 18 (6 KDX2, 6 KDX3, 6 KDDX) of those by 2030s. Meanwhile, we don't have an indigenous sub yet. We haven't been able to build a decent indigenous tank (Arjun is a bad design) or an IFV yet; they have the full spectrum of armoured vehicles in their domestic portfolio.

Now, these aren't related to "everything that flies", but these do lead to questions. That isn't inferiority complex (imho, with exams and academics etc. a new entrant in this not knowing everything and thus questioning is not that shocking). I mean, questioning and getting to know things is better than pretending to be a king ...... with no clothes. So, it may be better if you didn't make blanket statements abt the "ridiculous amounts of inferiority complex some members have".