Indian Police (Special Units): SWAT & QRTs

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
510
405
Dear Sir,

That mandate and that role were born out of the wrong analyses and the wrong conclusions. I maintain, as I did, that there is no earthly use for the NSG.

There is nothing in a local QRT that prevents a local Ghatak platoon from matching its time of reaction; there is nothing in it that prevents a local Ghatak team from knowing all about the location and its proximity; there is above all nothing about a QRT that prevents it from decaying in the manner that all State government organisations, entities and bodies decay.
You do know that any army unit formation - will always be on rotation - so say have local units is a quite wrong!+ Ghatak Platoons are NOT special Forces- They are Infantry with specialized roles. The same can be said for Paratrooper and Paracommandoes - one is infantry the other special forces - Know the difference!!!

Again Mandate and role - prevents the Ghatak formation to operate without consent from higher ups (In this case the Army)- prevents its time of reaction ! ... Not having any local knowledge (on rotation) prevent them from knowing the lay of the land! - This is where a LOCAL LE QRT ticks the right boxes

26/11 is THE example to where - we see local beat cops with lee enfield trying and failing to stop the bad guys with AKs. If a Local QRT was present - the story could be all different. Heck , one can recall - that the MARCOS Team from the Navy base was sent to the Taj - BUT their primary role was to help civilians escape and hence didn't engage the terrorist!

When one say Mandate - one should include the Law of the Land - Thus unless authorized - No Armed Forces Units are allowed to be used in Non defence establishments. The NSG is trained for CT/HRT roles and have the mandate to operate + NOTE: though the SAG operators are Army - One SHOULD take into account that these operators have volunteered to the NSG - NOT deputed - Know the difference!

Coming back to the 26/11, it is well documented that the NSG arrived quite late - Case and point : CST. Here having local LE QRT could have made a difference and saying that they will decay - pal, i find your lack of faith disturbing - it is similar to say why have any modern weapon system, when the possibility of india going to war, in the next 100 years is ZERO - so why bother and waste money!!? ..

Pal, one can and should always be Prepared
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
You do know that any army unit formation - will always be on rotation - so say have local units is a quite wrong!+ Ghatak Platoons are NOT special Forces- They are Infantry with specialized roles. The same can be said for Paratrooper and Paracommandoes - one is infantry the other special forces - Know the difference!!!

Dear Sir, Instead of taking an armed detachment of specialists from the outgoing unit, one will have to take a detachment from the incoming one, so what is the big deal? Your objection to units being on rotation falls down under its own weight.

Your objection to Ghatak platoons not being special forces is also overblown. For every 26/11, there are more than a dozen cases of armed assault. We don't need kneepad-clad, glare-glass equipped, potbellied constables shuffling along like underpaid extras in a Bollywood fantasy to cope with those. Raising special contingents simply to cope with one 26/11 every 70 years is utterly ridiculous. It is better to improve the level of the ordinary policeman. Since you are so well informed, you probably are already aware of the three-fold difference between traffic policemen, crime investigation policemen and armed policemen or policemen on riot duty, held in reserve against need; rapid reaction squads of policemen are a special case of those armed policemen. The question is why the existing policemen - not the traffic constable, but the armed police - be seen as sufficient to handle a situation short of 26/11?

Again Mandate and role - prevents the Ghatak formation to operate without consent from higher ups (In this case the Army)- prevents its time of reaction ! ... Not having any local knowledge (on rotation) prevent them from knowing the lay of the land! - This is where a LOCAL LE QRT ticks the right boxes

Total rubbish. You have mentioned two points: consent of higher-ups, and local knowledge. Each Command has Areas, normally under the control of a Major General. All it takes is a one line enabling order for the Area Commander to be allowed to intervene at the request of a designated civil authority. That is how the Army has been called in, not once, but dozens of times, in times of riot, by the civil authorities. Flag marches are not taken up on the orders of the COAS. Or even the GOC-in-C.

The point about local knowledge would have been cringe-worthy, if it was not so obviously a salvage operation. It need only be resolved AS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, by attaching a local Inspector with his designated Army counterparts. NO specialised police formations can possibly learn every nook and cranny of a big city, so what is the difference.

For more information on this, you may consult the bloke below:

1512429266991.png


As a young Brigade Major, he participated in not one, but DOZENS of operations coordinated with the local police and a small group from the police district, the area handled by a Deputy Commissioner of Police.

26/11 is THE example to where - we see local beat cops with lee enfield trying and failing to stop the bad guys with AKs. If a Local QRT was present - the story could be all different. Heck , one can recall - that the MARCOS Team from the Navy base was sent to the Taj - BUT their primary role was to help civilians escape and hence didn't engage the terrorist!

That is why the sole argument made has been to use the local armed police, not the local beat cop. Those who know the difference would not have used this example; it was a simple case of a nincompoop politician not knowing his *censored* from a hole in the ground, and of a diffident Police Commissioner who evidently did not know what to do.

It is a bad idea to build formations around command failures.

When one say Mandate - one should include the Law of the Land - Thus unless authorized - No Armed Forces Units are allowed to be used in Non defence establishments.

Thank you for this priceless information. At last I have gained something from this discussion.

I presume the next lesson will address the phrase commonly used of 'reading the Riot Act'; you, of course, know all about that.

The NSG is trained for CT/HRT roles and have the mandate to operate + NOTE: though the SAG operators are Army - One SHOULD take into account that these operators have volunteered to the NSG - NOT deputed - Know the difference!

Oh wow! That IS significant. So we shall have volunteers, not reluctant foot-dragging infantrymen sticking out their lower lips and going to the scene as slowly as they can. One can vividly visualise the operation. The gong rings; the already armed and waiting contingent spring to their feet, slide down the brass poles and jump into their fire tenders - oh wait, that is the Fire Brigade! Rewind.

Do YOU know the difference? Other than to sit back and to pontificate?

Coming back to the 26/11, it is well documented that the NSG arrived quite late - Case and point : CST. Here having local LE QRT could have made a difference and saying that they will decay - pal, i find your lack of faith disturbing - it is similar to say why have any modern weapon system, when the possibility of india going to war, in the next 100 years is ZERO - so why bother and waste money!!? ..

Be disturbed. Your proposal to create these little penny-packet sized supplements to the pension fund of random politicians is disturbing enough to others; no reason you shouldn't get some of it back, in spades, re-doubled.

EVERY police force has its armed police contingent. Calcutta has a battalion. Bengal (apart from Calcutta) has four battalions, who fought the BDR at light machine-gun, 2" mortar level during 65, before the creation of the BSF in 66, as well as the originally para-military EFR (look it up). If you look at the pathetic state of the EFR today, a contingent that once compared favourably with the Assam Rifles, you will understand any knowledegeable observers distaste for these playground Napoleonic manoeuvres.

Pal, one can and should always be Prepared

Before being prepared, one should be informed. Otherwise the situation devolves to what you have outlined: ready, shoot, aim.

One last point: please do not call me 'pal'. I do not encourage familiarity from strangers. Please note that I have consistently addressed you as 'Sir'. You may or may not reciprocate but that does not amount to license in addressing an unknown stranger. Once you demonstrate that you have even a foggy clue about how these things HAVE been handled, it will be easier to accept your sweeping prescriptions at face value.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
984
2,001
25
Vizag, India
Hi, sorry could not take part in the debate as I was busy most of the day. But reading the posts I'm afraid the thread has gone off the deep end.

That mandate and that role were born out of the wrong analyses and the wrong conclusions. I maintain, as I did, that there is no earthly use for the NSG.

That is the single most shocking line I've read in the thread so far, I must say. Kindly find the people in-charge of the Pathankot operation and repeat these same lines to them, if you would please.

There is nothing in a local QRT that prevents a local Ghatak platoon from matching its time of reaction;

Paperwork. Command. Practice of these procedures. In some states, language. Quite a lot actually.

All the problems you would get with a fragmented approach to command & control, you would face with this idea. Especially in states where there is no AFSPA.

there is nothing in it that prevents a local Ghatak team from knowing all about the location and its proximity; there is above all nothing about a QRT that prevents it from decaying in the manner that all State government organisations, entities and bodies decay.

Then don't let them decay! Train these SWAT/QRTs alongside NSG, alongside other states' QRTs. Train them regularly.

That said, one must not forget the role & purpose of Ghatak in the first place: which is to assist the infantry in their maneuvers & operations, behind enemy lines if required. That's the role they should train regularly for and be prepared for. Not Policing the interior.

Sir.

Forgive my ignorance but the tactical situation of any room intervention have a requirement of consideration of all parameters of potential force being employed against the Law Enforcement Agencies.

In this picture you have posted, and since your argument remains that this single file approach is along a wall or something, I can immediately point out and here I am considering your primary claim of this being an anti-terror operation, that to assume a closely packed and filed approach to a room intervention is conceptually flawed as there is something known as a fragmentation grenade which will shred the intervention team in a go. This logic then falls flat.

Sir, tactics are not developed overnight. Every approach & tactic used by QRTs today, is something that was invented, performed and simulated the world over for decades. How well they can muster these tactics, however, is up to level of training they receive.

In order to deploy a grenade against a stacked-up team of SWAT, the perp first needs to know a team is stacked up at a set location. He does not get to know that; he cannot see through walls - by the time he does, the officers are already rushing in and are always trained to bring down the perp before he can deploy any such explosive device. The whole plethora of door-breaching and room intervention is centered around speed & surprise for this purpose.

Kindly note that whether the personnel entering the room are Police or Army, the tactics have the same limitations. A single person cannot clear the room fast enough, he does not have eyes in his back so there's no one to cover him, a single person cannot breach a locked door, deploy an NFD (Noise Flash Device) and immediately enter the room, while still maintaining any semblance of speed and/or effectiveness. Hence more than one are necessary to both ensure the quick dispatch of the enemy, as well as ensure the safety of each other.

How many officers enter a room depends on the size the room is estimated to be (this is one reason why floor-plans are studied before beginning the tactical approach, at least the better-organized units like OCTOPUS do this. In US, studying floor plans prior to entry is almost always mandatory). A relatively small room, 2 officers. A larger room, 4 or more.

Properly performed, there is no bunching up while clearing a room, only that eyes are distributed evenly so that as soon as a threat comes into view, an officer is there to lay eyes on it (and depending on the nature of threat, alert his teammates).

I bring to your notice the fact that in any room intervention, the law enforcement agencies at best, will employ stun grenades/smoke grenades/irritants like tear gas. On the other hand, a trained terrorist, of hardened variety as seen from LeT and JeM or even HM, will definitely carry sufficient quantity of fragmentation/thermite grenades.

Sir, how many SWAT Officers were killed or heavily injured in Gurdaspur? And the terrorists that stormed the police station here actually did have grenades (they used some, while others were recovered from their bodies).

Having a grenade =/= deploying a grenade.

Kindly refer above.

Knowing the average IQ of the Indian policeman, and the level of training provided to them, would it be a wise decision to incorporate such a tactic knowing fully well that this is flawed? Also, knowing the limitations, what do you think will repetitive training on this model lead to?

SWAT/QRT are not made up of average Policemen. They have specialized training & equipment. If you are not found up to the mark during the training, you do not get to be a member of SWAT.

Sir.
Are you sure that this equipment provided is for ballistic protection? It seems to be a bit hard to digest noting the non-standradization of the footwear itself.

That is among the various uses of having eyewear in a tactical situation.

I would first urge you to read up about the difference between casual sunglasses and what are genuine eye-protection (the latter is seen worn by the Force One commando who's pic I posted).

Eye-protection (Eyepro for short) has a myriad of uses. One can wear both shaded & clear ones (depending mostly on time of day and natural lighting available). Even a splinter or dust emanating from a bullet hit to a wall near you can mess up one's eyes and render them ineffective.




Even a tree branch can hit one in the eyes while walking through them (the normal human reflex is to close your eyes when you're met with such a situation. But in these encounters closing your eyes is...well, detrimental. So eyepro affords you the ability to keep your eyes open & unharmed despite these obstacles.





So, no - they don't wear glasses to look cool.

Sir.

Agreed. But how much time did it take?

Do those who matter and you especially, realise the impact of 'prolonged' duration of contact and an apparent ' ability to hold off security forces' and the value in terms of public relations and recruitment such delays or prolonged intervention times have?

That is something intangible yet a gain for the terrorists. It is a battle of perception that the terrorists fight afterall.

How much time an operation takes depends on various factors - some of which are not available for analyses on public domain. But it is extremely difficult (and juvenile) to say "X unit took this much time for this op, if it was Y unit, we could have done it in half that time".

Look at Pathankot attack: look how much time that took despite NSG & military special forces being on scene? That reflects the size & scope of the operation, how many buildings had to be cleared, how much area to cover, etc. I wouldn't comment on such matters especially because I (or most civilians) have little information about them.

However - you are correct regarding the prolonging of an engagement. The threat must be neutralized ASAP.....the longer the threat lingers, the greater the scope for loss of civilian life, and greater the embarrassment for the country. Which is why it's better to maintain a highly trained & equipped SWAT under the Police Dept. rather than wait for NSG to come from the regional hub.

Even with regard to fighting a war of perception, what do you think could help the terrorists' cause more? :

"We attacked them, their cops killed us"

OR

"We attacked them and broke their law & order so bad they had to bring in the Army to deal with us"

Think about that, as well.

+++

And guys sorry for not being more active on the forum: I'm in the middle of my project-submissions and I have an exam lined up for 7th. Will try to be more present on the forum discussions after that (y)
 
Last edited:

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Hi, sorry could take part in the debate as I was busy most of the day. But reading the posts I'm afraid the thread has gone off the deep end.

Dear Sir,

Your loyal readers were engaged keeping the topic warm for you.

That is the single most shocking line I've read in the thread so far, I must say. Kindly find the people in-charge of the Pathankot operation and repeat these same lines to them, if you would please.

Sir, That is the single most shocking line in response to have to hear. The problem arose with the manning of the defensive perimeter by Defence Service Force personnel, the functional equivalents of unfit policemen. The problem arose with the deterioration of defensive surveillance measures; they were degraded on an Air Force base, and you choose to suggest that the ordinary, bog-variety police might be kept to standards when a military base cannot be kept up to spec. There was a quick reaction team slot; the Air Force has Garud commandos. One of them died in the operation. Are you seriously suggesting that there should be additional specialists over and above this? Really?

Paperwork. Command. Practice of these procedures. In some states, language. Quite a lot actually.

Sir, quite honestly, this sounds like an approach where every solution is sought to be found a corresponding problem. Surely you can do better.

All the problems you would get with a fragmented approach to command & control, you would face with this idea. Especially in states where there is no AFSPA.

If you think so, Sir, you have not taken the trouble to understand why AFSPA is necessary in the first place. The AFSPA is required because the empowerment offered by a civil magistrate WAS NOT available on the spot, in the areas where AFSPA is in force. AFSPA is NOT necessary except in unusual circumstances, where there is no magistrate to authorise opening fire.

It appears that we are doomed to shocking each other.

Then don't let them decay! Train these SWAT/QRTs alongside NSG, alongside other states' QRTs. Train them regularly.

Please report for parade tomorrow morning and start the work, Sir.

Why are you now descending to pious platitudes? Even the CRP gets slaughtered in the dozens; they are supposed to be trained for counter-insurgency. And you seriously expect these rag, tag and bobtail police detachments to keep up their training?

Please check on the availability of patrol boats on the Mumbai coast and what is keeping them immobile.

That said, one must not forget the role & purpose of Ghatak in the first place: which is to assist the infantry in their maneuvers & operations, behind enemy lines if required. That's the role they should train regularly for and be prepared for. Not Policing the interior.

That said, Sir, to coin a phrase, the Army is supposed to defend the frontiers, not make flag marches through riot-hit areas. We are discussing exceptional cases, are we not?


Sir, tactics are not developed overnight. Every approach & tactic used by QRTs today, is something that was invented, performed and simulated the world over for decades. How well they can muster these tactics, however, is up to level of training they receive.

In order to deploy a grenade against a stacked-up team of SWAT, the perp first needs to know a team is stacked up at a set location. He does not get to know that; he cannot see through walls - by the time he does, the officers are already rushing in and are always trained to bring down the perp before he can deploy any such explosive device. The whole plethora of door-breaching and room intervention is centered around speed & surprise for this purpose.

Kindly note that whether the personnel entering the room are Police or Army, the tactics have the same limitations. A single person cannot clear the room fast enough, he does not have eyes in his back so there's no one to cover him, a single person cannot breach a locked door, deploy an NFD (Noise Flash Device) and immediately enter the room, while still maintaining any semblance of speed and/or effectiveness. Hence more than one are necessary to both ensure the quick dispatch of the enemy, as well as ensure the safety of each other.

How many officers enter a room depends on the size the room is estimated to be (this is one reason why floor-plans are studied before beginning the tactical approach, at least the better-organized units like OCTOPUS do this. In US, studying floor plans prior to entry is almost always mandatory). A relatively small room, 2 officers. A larger room, 4 or more.

Properly performed, there is no bunching up while clearing a room, only that eyes are distributed evenly so that as soon as a threat comes into view, an officer is there to lay eyes on it (and depending on the nature of threat, alert his teammates).



Sir, how many SWAT Officers were killed or heavily injured in Gurdaspur? And the terrorists that stormed the police station here actually did have grenades (they used some, while others were recovered from their bodies).

Having a grenade =/= deploying a grenade.

Kindly refer above.



SWAT/QRT are not made up of average Policemen. They have specialized training & equipment. If you are not found up to the mark during the training, you do not get to be a member of SWAT.



That is among the various uses of having eyewear in a tactical situation.

I would first urge you to read up about the difference between casual sunglasses and what are genuine eye-protection (the latter is seen worn by the Force One commando who's pic I posted).

Eye-protection (Eyepro for short) has a myriad of uses. One can wear both shaded & clear ones (depending mostly on time of day and natural lighting available). Even a splinter or dust emanating from a bullet hit to a wall near you can mess up one's eyes and render them ineffective.




Even a tree branch can hit one in the eyes while walking through them (the normal human reflex is to close your eyes when you're met with such a situation. But in these encounters closing your eyes is...well, detrimental. So eyepro affords you the ability to keep your eyes open & unharmed despite these obstacles.





So, no - they don't wear glasses to look cool.



How much time an operation takes depends on various factors - some of which are not available for analyses on public domain. But it is extremely difficult (and juvenile) to say "X unit took this much time for this op, if it was Y unit, we could have done it in half that time".

Look at Pathankot attack: look how much time that took despite NSG & military special forces being on scene? That reflects the size & scope of the operation, how many buildings had to be cleared, how much area to cover, etc. I wouldn't comment on such matters especially because I (or most civilians) have little information about them.

However - you are correct regarding the prolonging of an engagement. The threat must be neutralized ASAP.....the longer the threat lingers, the greater the scope for loss of civilian life, and greater the embarrassment for the country. Which is why it's better to maintain a highly trained & equipped SWAT under the Police Dept. rather than wait for NSG to come from the regional hub.

Even with regard to fighting a war of perception, what do you think could help the terrorists' cause more? :

"We attacked them, their cops killed us"

OR

"We attacked them and broke their law & order so bad they had to bring in the Army to deal with us"

Think about that, as well.

+++

And guys sorry for not being more active on the forum: I'm in the middle of my project-submissions and I have an exam lined up for 7th. Will try to be more present on the forum discussions after that
(y)
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
510
405
Hi, sorry could take part in the debate as I was busy most of the day. But reading the posts I'm afraid the thread has gone off the deep end.



That is the single most shocking line I've read in the thread so far, I must say. Kindly find the people in-charge of the Pathankot operation and repeat these same lines to them, if you would please.



Paperwork. Command. Practice of these procedures. In some states, language. Quite a lot actually.

All the problems you would get with a fragmented approach to command & control, you would face with this idea. Especially in states where there is no AFSPA.



Then don't let them decay! Train these SWAT/QRTs alongside NSG, alongside other states' QRTs. Train them regularly.

That said, one must not forget the role & purpose of Ghatak in the first place: which is to assist the infantry in their maneuvers & operations, behind enemy lines if required. That's the role they should train regularly for and be prepared for. Not Policing the interior.



Sir, tactics are not developed overnight. Every approach & tactic used by QRTs today, is something that was invented, performed and simulated the world over for decades. How well they can muster these tactics, however, is up to level of training they receive.

In order to deploy a grenade against a stacked-up team of SWAT, the perp first needs to know a team is stacked up at a set location. He does not get to know that; he cannot see through walls - by the time he does, the officers are already rushing in and are always trained to bring down the perp before he can deploy any such explosive device. The whole plethora of door-breaching and room intervention is centered around speed & surprise for this purpose.

Kindly note that whether the personnel entering the room are Police or Army, the tactics have the same limitations. A single person cannot clear the room fast enough, he does not have eyes in his back so there's no one to cover him, a single person cannot breach a locked door, deploy an NFD (Noise Flash Device) and immediately enter the room, while still maintaining any semblance of speed and/or effectiveness. Hence more than one are necessary to both ensure the quick dispatch of the enemy, as well as ensure the safety of each other.

How many officers enter a room depends on the size the room is estimated to be (this is one reason why floor-plans are studied before beginning the tactical approach, at least the better-organized units like OCTOPUS do this. In US, studying floor plans prior to entry is almost always mandatory). A relatively small room, 2 officers. A larger room, 4 or more.

Properly performed, there is no bunching up while clearing a room, only that eyes are distributed evenly so that as soon as a threat comes into view, an officer is there to lay eyes on it (and depending on the nature of threat, alert his teammates).



Sir, how many SWAT Officers were killed or heavily injured in Gurdaspur? And the terrorists that stormed the police station here actually did have grenades (they used some, while others were recovered from their bodies).

Having a grenade =/= deploying a grenade.

Kindly refer above.



SWAT/QRT are not made up of average Policemen. They have specialized training & equipment. If you are not found up to the mark during the training, you do not get to be a member of SWAT.



That is among the various uses of having eyewear in a tactical situation.

I would first urge you to read up about the difference between casual sunglasses and what are genuine eye-protection (the latter is seen worn by the Force One commando who's pic I posted).

Eye-protection (Eyepro for short) has a myriad of uses. One can wear both shaded & clear ones (depending mostly on time of day and natural lighting available). Even a splinter or dust emanating from a bullet hit to a wall near you can mess up one's eyes and render them ineffective.




Even a tree branch can hit one in the eyes while walking through them (the normal human reflex is to close your eyes when you're met with such a situation. But in these encounters closing your eyes is...well, detrimental. So eyepro affords you the ability to keep your eyes open & unharmed despite these obstacles.





So, no - they don't wear glasses to look cool.



How much time an operation takes depends on various factors - some of which are not available for analyses on public domain. But it is extremely difficult (and juvenile) to say "X unit took this much time for this op, if it was Y unit, we could have done it in half that time".

Look at Pathankot attack: look how much time that took despite NSG & military special forces being on scene? That reflects the size & scope of the operation, how many buildings had to be cleared, how much area to cover, etc. I wouldn't comment on such matters especially because I (or most civilians) have little information about them.

However - you are correct regarding the prolonging of an engagement. The threat must be neutralized ASAP.....the longer the threat lingers, the greater the scope for loss of civilian life, and greater the embarrassment for the country. Which is why it's better to maintain a highly trained & equipped SWAT under the Police Dept. rather than wait for NSG to come from the regional hub.

Even with regard to fighting a war of perception, what do you think could help the terrorists' cause more? :

"We attacked them, their cops killed us"

OR

"We attacked them and broke their law & order so bad they had to bring in the Army to deal with us"

Think about that, as well.

+++

And guys sorry for not being more active on the forum: I'm in the middle of my project-submissions and I have an exam lined up for 7th. Will try to be more present on the forum discussions after that (y)
Good Luck!
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
984
2,001
25
Vizag, India
Sir, That is the single most shocking line in response to have to hear. The problem arose with the manning of the defensive perimeter by Defence Service Force personnel, the functional equivalents of unfit policemen. The problem arose with the deterioration of defensive surveillance measures; they were degraded on an Air Force base, and you choose to suggest that the ordinary, bog-variety police might be kept to standards when a military base cannot be kept up to spec. There was a quick reaction team slot; the Air Force has Garud commandos. One of them died in the operation. Are you seriously suggesting that there should be additional specialists over and above this? Really?

Question is why NSG was needed? Why the Military (agree they are not Army but Air Force) was not enough? The problem is that you are opposing the creation of specialized units, without understanding why that specialization was created in the first place.

In Pathankot, the daily-duty guards failed - hence special units were required to come in and resolve the situation. It's the same with regard to Police - when the prevention of a crime fails, it has the scope to get out of hand of the usual Policeman. That's why SWAT/QRT are required to resolve that situation, when and if it develops.

And as I said before, QRTs have specialized training and standards. Most Policemen do not qualify (just like how all Armymen don't qualify to be a part of NSG). A localized unit is favored as opposed to a centralized one due to the reaction times needed. Special intervention teams under the Police Dept. is an approach adopted by every single country in the world - we are not special. We faced the same challenges (and failures), and inevitably we will adopt similar tactics & command structure to counter them.

In fact - it has already been done. So whatever Ghatak solution you are suggesting is neither a description of reality, nor a proper alternative. Unless you wish to convey that only you have a sound understanding of the various tactical situations that develop - and no one else in the country (or other countries, for that matter) does.

Almost every state now has specially trained & equipped SWAT/QRT units which are meant to be capable of containing and/or eliminating a threat much sooner than what an NSG team would take to even reach the spot....let alone a Ghatak team (which are not even routinely tasked for that role).

Sir, quite honestly, this sounds like an approach where every solution is sought to be found a corresponding problem. Surely you can do better.

If that's how you wish to take it, be my guest.

Question: NSG's tactical intervention units are made up of Army personnel...so why was NSG itself placed under MHA and not MoD?

Why do these Army personnel after applying for NSG undergo 3 months of basic training and then some 9 to 11 months of advanced training? Surely they don't spend a whole year re-learning what they already learnt in the Army?

Why NSG doesn't just depute it's personnel directly from the Ghatak platoons and get them directly into service? After all according to you Ghatak can easily handle all these roles. NSG is commanded by Army officers at the top - are you suggesting these officers don't know what Ghatak can do?

Please report for parade tomorrow morning and start the work, Sir.

Why are you now descending to pious platitudes? Even the CRP gets slaughtered in the dozens; they are supposed to be trained for counter-insurgency. And you seriously expect these rag, tag and bobtail police detachments to keep up their training?

Please check on the availability of patrol boats on the Mumbai coast and what is keeping them immobile.
It appears that we are doomed to shocking each other.

Yes - I'm particularly shocked at the pot-bellied traffic cops' inability to even take a few fast steps to grab a rider who just jumped a signal.

Shall we deploy Ghatak commandos to man all traffic lights in the country, sir?
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Question is why NSG was needed? Why the Military (agree they are not Army but Air Force) was not enough?

Sir, a basic question will help you to understand. Have you managed a body of men (and/or women) ever?

The problem is that you are opposing the creation of specialized units, without understanding why that specialization was created in the first place.

No, sir, on the contrary. I oppose the creation of specialised units, understanding only too well why such things happen - specialisation is one of the excuses used, to dupe the unwary, to signal the battle-scarred, to slide in a new budget head and make it seem to be an innocuous and minor refinement of an existing situation.

In Pathankot, the daily-duty guards failed - hence special units were required to come in and resolve the situation.

Sir, please try to understand, rather than trying to misunderstand.

The problem is precisely there: the daily-duty guards failed. You need to start with the premise that personnel assigned to a job are not, should not be, assigned to fail, by confusion of objectives. The daily-duty guards, if that is your phrase of choice, were not chosen for their ability to prevent incursions; they were chosen to do a favour to a body of men who had served the country, but instead of the legitimate method of increasing their pensions, some swine of a bureaucrat colluded with some swine in the military hierarchy to re-employ the retired soldiers.

What results do you expect when a small suicide squad with laser-like focus on achieving their objectives hits this honourable bunch of retired and re-employed personnel who spend their time wondering when the tea-boy will arrive?

It's the same with regard to Police - when the prevention of a crime fails, it has the scope to get out of hand of the usual Policeman. That's why SWAT/QRT are required to resolve that situation, when and if it develops.

Sir, do you live at home or in a hostel?

Ask yourself, if your pet dog poops in the middle of your drawing room floor, do you clear up the poop, or do you drape a beautiful Persian carpet over it? And then ask yourself - if this doesn't get the matter home to you, nothing will, and you might as well stop studying to pass exams, because whatever you study and whatever you pass will not help you, not until you learn - what happens when Fido trustingly does it again? A durree this time?

You have to tackle a problem at the root, not at the branch.

And as I said before, QRTs have specialized training and standards.

Yes, Sir, specialised training and standards. Understood, Sir. Thank you very much, Sir. It is humbling to think of the effort you have had to put in to inject these basics into an unwitting skull.

Most Policemen do not qualify (just like how all Armymen don't qualify to be a part of NSG).

Yes, Sir, they do not. Just for a laugh, pause from your Sisyphean labours (this is an example of what a great man from our western desert has called pretentious language intended to convey a false sense of superiority) and apply the method of identifying the root of the problem.

A hint: The British conquered the whole of India - all of it, without exception, including the Marathas, the Rajputs, the Sikhs, the Rohillas, the whole pack of remnants of the Mughal and subordinate dynasties, including the King of Oudh, assorted Nawabs from Bengal and Bihar and the Carnatic and His Exalted Highness - with Biharis, including brahmins, and then discovered specialisation, when they mismanaged the basic soldiery in a truly stupid and unthinking manner.

That may give you a clue.

And that, it is to be hoped, will open your eyes to the scam that is going on, even as we speak. That may remind you how the BSF was created by Rustamji, by how he put in cowboys when he needed only cowherds, and what the results are today; a simple comparison of the escalation of the arms and equipment of the Pakistani Rangers and the Indian border guards will help you to understand and see through the screens and misleading mists put up. Think of the BSF itself; does it,contrary to the original intention, guard every inch of India's borders? Why not? Who actually guards the LOC? and the LAC? And the bits of Himachal abutting on to Tibet? And continue till you have a picture before your own disbelieving eyes of what those *censored*s in the Ministry have done to us in broad daylight.

And then please let us return to this discussion.

BTW, I was perched at a coign of vantage (that phrase is another bon-bon to our western connoisseur of inappropriate language used by amateurs to gull the military races that the British re-discovered and retro-fitted onto our helpless selves); but the facts are in the public domain.

A localized unit is favored as opposed to a centralized one due to the reaction times needed. Special intervention teams under the Police Dept. is an approach adopted by every single country in the world - we are not special. We faced the same challenges (and failures), and inevitably we will adopt similar tactics & command structure to counter them.

Indeed, Sir.

Since we are now at universals, you may find a cursory look at Parkinson's Law to be of interest.

In fact - it has already been done.

So whatever Ghatak solution you are suggesting is neither a description of reality, nor a proper alternative. Unless you wish to convey that only you have a sound understanding of the various tactical situations that develop - and no one else in the country (or other countries, for that matter) does.

Yes, Sir; if it is inevitable, let us lie back and enjoy it. Have you, btw, gone through the exercise in question? The metaphorical one? It might not seem to be as satisfying a piece of cynicism as it seems otherwise.

Almost every state now has specially trained & equipped SWAT/QRT units which are meant to be capable of containing and/or eliminating a threat much sooner than what an NSG team would take to even reach the spot....let alone a Ghatak team (which are not even routinely tasked for that role).

And how many of those states have actually suffered a similar attack? Let us count, from the South. Karnataka; Maharashtra; Gujarat; Punjab; J&K; Delhi; West Bengal.

Could you help me fill in the gaps in my count? And could you help me understand why we need specialist squads in every state?

If that's how you wish to take it, be my guest.

Thank you, Sir. It is a benign gesture, and a large-hearted one.

Question: NSG's tactical intervention units are made up of Army personnel...so why was NSG itself placed under MHA and not MoD?

" 'What is truth?' said jesting Pilate, and would not pause for an answer."

If you were to ask yourself that question in honesty, and not as a rhetorical device to trounce an insufficiently informed, insufficiently aware and insufficiently educated peasant, you might find a wonderland of bureaucratic subterfuge rising up in front of you, revealed in its full splendour, shed of the stealth coatings that have carried these monstrous structures into our midst and created an imposing vista riddled by termites.

Why do these Army personnel after applying for NSG undergo 3 months of basic training and then some 9 to 11 months of advanced training? Surely they don't spend a whole year re-learning what they already learnt in the Army?

Sir, is it possible for you to ask yourself: if such stern measures are used to train people, why not apply those to the ones sought to be replaced?

Why NSG doesn't just depute it's personnel directly from the Ghatak platoons and get them directly into service? After all according to you Ghatak can easily handle all these roles. NSG is commanded by Army officers at the top - are you suggesting these officers don't know what Ghatak can do?

Think root, Sir, not branch.

The same population supplies the jawan and the constable. Why not train the constable in the first place? Ever thought of that?

Yes - I'm particularly shocked at the pot-bellied traffic cops' inability to even take a few fast steps to grab a rider who just jumped a signal.

Shall we deploy Ghatak commandos to man all traffic lights in the country, sir?

Sadly, Sir, that lack is seen as an opportunity for levity, not as an opportunity. On that pivotal piece of thinking rests this entire discussion.
 
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Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
984
2,001
25
Vizag, India
Sir, a basic question will help you to understand. Have you managed a body of men (and/or women) ever?



No, sir, on the contrary. I oppose the creation of specialised units, understanding only too well why such thingshappen - specialisation is one of the excuses used, to dupe the unwary, to signal the battle-scarred, to slide in a new budget head and make it seem an innocuous and minor refinement of an existing situation.



Sir, please try to understand, rather than trying to misunderstand.

Yes, Sir, they do not. Just for a laugh, pause from your Sisyphean labours (this is an example of what a great man from our western desert has called pretentious language intended to convey a false sense of superiority) and apply the method of identifying the root of the problem.

A hint: The British conquered the whole of India - all of it, without exception, including the Marathas, the Rajputs, the Sikhs, the Rohillas, the whole pack of remnants of the Mughal and subordinate dynasties, including the King of Oudh, assorted Nawabs from Bengal and Bihar and the Carnatic and His Exalted Highness - with Biharis, including brahmins, and then discovered specialisation, when they mismanaged the basic soldiery in a truly stupid and unthinking manner.

That may give you a clue.

And that, it is to be hoped, will open your eyes to the scam that is going on, even as we speak. That may remind you how the BSF was created by Rustamji, by how he put in cowboys when he needed only cowherds, and what the results are today; a simple comparison of the escalation of the arms and equipment of the Pakistani Rangers and the Indian border guards will help you to understand and see through the screens and misleading mists put up. Think of the BSF itself; does it,contrary to the original intention, guard every inch of India's borders? Why not? Who actually guards the LOC? and the LAC? And the bits of Himachal abutting on to Tibet? And continue till you have a picture before your own disbelieving eyes of what those *censored*s in the Ministry have done to us in broad daylight.

So when are you planning to write to The Wire to unearth this huge scam, Sir? :)

Since you seem to love delving into history - let us delve some more and go to the root (which you are also fond of) of human conflict. Why one group of humans cannot get along with another group? Can you not see how huge organizations and government-appointed persons are profiteering from conflict? To buy a set of helmets for the Army, can you imagine how much public money is being spent?

So according to this view - the very creation of a Military is a scam! Army, Navy, Air Force, they are scams! Why did they need to create three services? Why not just train Armymen to fly planes & sail ships? The three services are a scam!

Do you understand now why the approach you are taking to this is conceptually flawed?

The problem is precisely there: the daily-duty guards failed. You need to start with the premise that personnel assigned to a job are not designed to fail, by confusion of objectives.

These are humans. Humans make mistakes and humans fail. No organization in the world is designed to fail. But when and if it does, there needs to be a way to solve the problem which consequentially emerges as a result of that failure.

You cannot say: accidents are not meant to happen, therefore we don't need airbags in our cars.

Correct, when we are living in a society of perfect design, accidents will not happen. But we are NOT living in such a society.

Sir, is it possible for you to ask yourself: if such stern measures are used to train people, why not apply those to the ones sought to be replaced?

Precisely why I said SWAT/QRTs should train alongside NSG, and along other states' QRTs.

Why not train the constable in the first place? Ever thought of that?

You don't expect the Police Dept. to be able to keep a specialized group of 50-100 men well-trained and well-armed. But you want them to give special forces-level training to every single constable?

Excellent - go right ahead.

And besides, Training alone is not enough - equipment is necessary too. If you want the daily-duty constable to be capable of handling a terrorist with an AK, you cannot do it by giving the constable a baton. The constable needs a rifle, too. And the constable needs protection (helmet, vest) to ensure his own safety. Loss of a Jihadi may be acceptable to an LeT analogue - but loss of a Policeman should not be acceptable to the MHA.

And strangely.....you don't seem to see this (assault rifles, helmets, vests) as militarization of the Police?

I believe you need to make up your mind.

What exactly do you wish to convey? A description of the reality as it exists, and why it exists in that way? Or some Utopian vision of your own?
 
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bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
So when are you planning to write to The Wire to unearth this huge scam, Sir? :)

Please see below.

Since you seem to love delving into history - let us delve some more and go to the root (which you are also fond of) of human conflict. Why one group of humans cannot get along with another group? Can you not see how huge organizations and government-appointed persons are profiteering from conflict? To buy a set of helmets for the Army, can you imagine how much public money is being spent?

Thank you, Sir, for conflating the human tendency to war with the purchase of helmets. That displays in ample measure your breadth of vision, and the encyclopaedic knowledge that permits the entire matter to be brought under one roof, as it were. I daresay no one else in sight has that breadth and width of military knowledge.

So according to this view - the very creation of a Military is a scam! Army, Navy, Air Force, they are scams! Why did they need to create three services? Why not just train Armymen to fly planes & sail ships? The three services are a scam!

Please see below, and let us know if you would pick the Army that is an Army, or the Air Force that belongs to the Army that belongs to the Navy, or the Navy that belongs to the Army.

Do you understand now why the approach you are taking to this is conceptually flawed?

Yes, Sir.

Since Man habitually goes to war, we should have Quick Reaction Teams. The whole thing is clear now.

These are humans. Humans make mistakes and humans fail. No organization in the world is designed to fail. But when and if it does, there needs to be a way to solve the problem which consequentially emerges as a result of that failure.

You cannot say: accidents are not meant to happen, therefore we don't need airbags in our cars.

Correct, when we are living in a society of perfect design, accidents will not happen. But we are NOT living in such a society.

You might care to turn your thoughts to Fido and his misdemeanours. Or perhaps in the circumstances, we might have to do define his actions as infractions :p

Precisely why I said SWAT/QRTs should train alongside NSG, and along other states' QRTs.

These exercises teach fortitude and phlegm. They also raise us to a higher level of consciousness. I now understand and enter into the spirit of Gray's Elegy:

The plowman homeward plods his weary way,

And leaves the world to darkness and to me.

If one is to gather up one's flagging spirits, and enter once more into unequal combat to the sound of an uncertain bugle, if you want the SWAT/QRTS to train alongside NSG and other state SWAT/QRTS, why in the name of pickled pink gherkins would you want to recruit, equip and locate them centrally? Why not maintain a standing formation in every Area HQ?

You don't expect the Police Dept. to be able to keep a specialized group of 50-100 men well-trained and well-armed. But you want them to give special forces-level training to every single constable?

Excellent - go right ahead.

No, Sir, I don't.

I expect the state to ensure that their police is graded, and that fit and able younger men have greater physical burdens; that as the policemen get older they get pushed into support echelons, and that the fit and able young men are divided into units that require fit and able young men; that those of them held in reserve or formally tasked for emergency duties are suitably but simply equipped. But we shall revert to that.

And besides, Training alone is not enough - equipment is necessary too. If you want the daily-duty constable to be capable of handling a terrorist with an AK, you cannot do it by giving the constable a baton. The constable needs a rifle, too. And the constable needs protection (helmet, vest) to ensure his own safety. Loss of a fidayeen may be acceptable to an LeT analogue - but loss of a Policeman should not be acceptable to the MHA.

And strangely.....you don't seem to see this (assault rifles, helmets, vests) as militarization of the Police?

I believe you need to make up your mind.

Why exactly do you wish to convey? A description of the reality as it exists, and why it exists in that way? Or some Utopian vision of your own?

I do believe that you are annoyed, Sir; is it something I said?

You are writing this knowing that policemen already have helmets and guns; your objection then is to bulletproof vests. That is illuminating, Sir.

I do believe, Sir, that I have conveyed sufficient information and background for any normal person to be convinced that an account of these strange mushrooms cannot be achieved accurately without knowing the background and history of those that are sought to be replaced or supplanted. Beyond that, there is only sarcasm and bad blood. So, seriatim, (that my obligatory oblation to my manes, and a voluntary libation to our western friend :D ):
  • I do not intend to write to The Wire; making you, and other intelligent young people aware, is sufficient; The Wire will not intervene; you might;
  • I have already delved into military history, and am always eager and prepared to learn more;
  • The history of the division into the three services is interesting, and I am familiar with it.
    • A curiousity that emerges: ranks and hierarchies, and why a brigadier was in some historical cases junior to a colonel, and what a lieutenant field marshal really did, or what a marshal of the camp did;
    • Another, since you have mentioned these divisions as being necessary: if you look up, you will find a nation that has an Army with its own Air Force and its own Navy; a Navy with its own Army and its own Air Force; the Army that 'belongs' to the Navy possessed of its own Air Force and its own Navy. Curious, isn't it?
 

Parthu

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Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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Hi, sorry couldn't post a reply in the morning - was busy.

Thank you, Sir, for conflating the human tendency to war with the purchase of helmets. That displays in ample measure your breadth of vision, and the encyclopaedic knowledge that permits the entire matter to be brought under one roof, as it were. I daresay no one else in sight has that breadth and width of military knowledge.

Please see below, and let us know if you would pick the Army that is an Army, or the Air Force that belongs to the Army that belongs to the Navy, or the Navy that belongs to the Army.

Only thing on display is your lack of an ability to grasp what the other party is trying to get across - do you do that willingly, is that what is meant by selective ignorance? I leave it to you to clarify.

Yes, Sir.
Since Man habitually goes to war, we should have Quick Reaction Teams. The whole thing is clear now.

Not as clear as someone who's plans call for deployment of Army special forces for policing, manning traffic signals, and maybe even writing down challaans.

You are truly an intriguing one - you try delving into the beginnings of the British Raj (as if that was the issue of discussion here) in an attempt to give a historical perspective to your views. But you only want to delve up till a certain point. :LOL: You don't want to go any deeper, afraid of whether the perspective that then emerges provides a completely different result!

You might care to turn your thoughts to Fido and his misdemeanours. Or perhaps in the circumstances, we might have to do define his actions as infractions :p

Sorry I was preoccupied with my exams & project submissions. Promise to be more active on the forum from now on.

These exercises teach fortitude and phlegm. They also raise us to a higher level of consciousness. I now understand and enter into the spirit of Gray's Elegy:

The plowman homeward plods his weary way,

And leaves the world to darkness and to me.

Huh. Extremely interesting.

I think you can find a better audience for this here: Off-Topic Chit-Chat

If one is to gather up one's flagging spirits, and enter once more into unequal combat to the sound of an uncertain bugle, if you want the SWAT/QRTS to train alongside NSG and other state SWAT/QRTS, why in the name of pickled pink gherkins would you want to recruit, equip and locate them centrally? Why not maintain a standing formation in every Area HQ?

Or better still - why not remove the hassle of inter-agency communication and command issues and move this specialized unit under the control of the Police? I'm always for people putting up interesting new perspectives - but your's is truly interesting: completely opposite to the way the law-enforcement & military personnel think the world over.

But I must ask you - do you do this simply because you think you'll have more of a 'distinction' factor if you say the Sun rises in the West? :rolleyes:

Is it also this urge that makes you yell 'SCAM' at a specialization? It appears you deny the existence of any difference whatsoever between what one typed of armed personnel do from the other - everyone is just there to look cool and rip off the public?

This site is actually in need of writers who present new and unique opinions - I seriously suggest you get down to writing an article centered around busting the biggest scam in human history - the military!

, and that the fit and able young men are divided into units that require fit and able young men; that those of them held in reserve or formally tasked for emergency duties are suitably but simply equipped..

Suitably but simply :ROFLMAO:. Sir, may I have the pleasure of knowing from you what 'simple' equipment is?

...and btw, we already have such units: the SWAT/QRTs.

I do believe that you are annoyed, Sir; is it something I said?

Yea...saying 'Sir' half a dozen times in each paragraph. :D Maybe if you stop dedicating all your concentration to make sure you have met your Sir quota for the post, you'd actually start posting something of value which actually corresponds to the topic.

You are writing this knowing that policemen already have helmets and guns; your objection then is to bulletproof vests. That is illuminating, Sir.

I do believe, Sir, that I have conveyed sufficient information and background for any normal person to be convinced that an account of these strange mushrooms cannot be achieved accurately without knowing the background and history of those that are sought to be replaced or supplanted. Beyond that, there is only sarcasm and bad blood. So, seriatim, (that my obligatory oblation to my manes, and a voluntary libation to our western friend :D ):
  • I do not intend to write to The Wire; making you, and other intelligent young people aware, is sufficient; The Wire will not intervene; you might;
  • I have already delved into military history, and am always eager and prepared to learn more;
  • The history of the division into the three services is interesting, and I am familiar with it.
    • A curiousity that emerges: ranks and hierarchies, and why a brigadier was in some historical cases junior to a colonel, and what a lieutenant field marshal really did, or what a marshal of the camp did;
    • Another, since you have mentioned these divisions as being necessary: if you look up, you will find a nation that has an Army with its own Air Force and its own Navy; a Navy with its own Army and its own Air Force; the Army that 'belongs' to the Navy possessed of its own Air Force and its own Navy. Curious, isn't it?
For the first time, your posts made be contemplate all jobs in the country (cooks, clerks, lawyers, teachers etc.) to be performed by Armymen. So it is not so curious, but actually grossly amusing.

That said, I must reiterate that this thread is for keeping track of the developments in the various Police special units that are present & operating across the country - presenting a view which says they shouldn't exist is like saying aircraft should never have been made. I'm not saying that view should not be presented, but that's something which makes for an Opinion Piece - and we have a separate section for that.
 
Last edited:

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
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Republic of Wadiya
Hi, sorry couldn't post a reply in the morning - was busy.



Only thing on display is your lack of an ability to grasp what the other party is trying to get across - do you do that willingly, is that what is meant by selective ignorance? I leave it to you clarify.



Not as clear as someone who's plans call for deployment of Army special forces for policing, manning traffic signals, and maybe even writing down challaans.

You are truly an intriguing one - you try delving into the beginnings of the British Raj (as if that was the issue of discussion here) in an attempt to give a historical perspective to your views. But you only want to delve up till a certain point. :LOL: You don't want to go any deeper, afraid of whether the perspective that then emerges provides a completely different result!



Sorry I was preoccupied with my exams & project submissions. Promise to be more active on the forum from now on.



Huh. Extremely interesting.

I think you can find a better audience for this here: Off-Topic Chit-Chat



Or better still - why not remove the hassle of inter-agency communication and command issues and move this specialized unit under the control of the Police? I'm always for people putting up interesting new perspectives - but your's is truly interesting: completely opposite to the way the law-enforcement & military personnel think the world over.

But I must ask you - do you do this simply because you think you'll have more of a 'distinction' factor if you say the Sun rises in the West? :rolleyes:

Is it also this urge that makes you yell 'SCAM' at a specialization? It appears you deny the existence of any difference whatsoever between what one typed of armed personnel do from the other - everyone is just there to look cool and rip off the public?

This site is actually in need of writers who present new and unique opinions - I seriously suggest you get down to writing an article centered around busting the biggest scam in human history - the military!



Suitably but simply :ROFLMAO:. Sir, may I have the pleasure of knowing from you what 'simple' equipment is?

...and btw, we already have such units: the SWAT/QRTs.



Yea...saying 'Sir' half a dozen times in each paragraph. :D Maybe if you stop dedicating all your concentration to make sure you have met your Sir quota for the post, you'd actually start posting something of value which actually corresponds to the topic.

For the first time, your posts made be contemplate all jobs in the country (cooks, clerks, lawyers, teachers etc.) to be performed by Armymen. So it is not so curious, but actually grossly amusing.

That said, I must reiterate that this thread is for keeping track of the developments in the various Police special units that are present & operating across the country - presenting a view which says they shouldn't exist is like saying aircraft should never have been made. I'm not saying that view should not be presented, but that's something which makes for an Opinion Piece - and we have a separate section for that.
Off topic but I must say the oldies though highly knowledgeable, are to rigid for new ideas and thinking to have a meaningful and productive discussion. Same was true for @joe @vsdoc too


Both the views are correct though. It all depends on changing geopolitical environment and threat perception.
Yesterday's batons are no longer effective now. We must be well prepared and well equipped for anything the immediate future can demand us. Otherwise aur Aircraft industry is living example of ignorance, short sightedness and more often willful blindness.

IMO well equipped QRTs are need of an hour.
We must learn from past experience of developed countries.
 
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Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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Vizag, India
Chattisgarh Police STF with their collection of FN MAG-based GPMGs (the one being manned is the tripod-mounted MMG variant), while the one in foreground has an interesting little item: a magnifier sight! Looks like an ACOG or an analogue.



In the background is an RCL and mortars.

@Abingdonboy
 
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Parthu

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Jammu & Kashmir Police (Special Operations Group) - with what I think is an OFB-made 12 gauge shotgun.



Shotguns sure are a rarity in India.....I seldom come across pics of them (99% percent in Kashmir, some in CAPF training), the only shotgun that keeps up appearances is the Franchi SPAS-15 (used by both NSG, OCTOPUS as well as some other units), and even that is relatively pretty rare.

....btw, has anyone noticed JKP personnel are recently being seen more & more with that US-pattern woodland camo pants and tan shoes combination (which was prominently worn by American & NATO-aligned forces throughout the Cold War)....nothing really significant given the extremely wide variety of clothing worn by Army, Police & Paramilitary personnel in J&K, but an interesting little observation nonetheless. :)
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Hi, sorry couldn't post a reply in the morning - was busy.



Only thing on display is your lack of an ability to grasp what the other party is trying to get across - do you do that willingly, is that what is meant by selective ignorance? I leave it to you to clarify.

Dear Sir, you may count my quota as starting from this point. On the comparatively unimportant subject of what you wrote, might it be asked if the fault is that of the getting across or of the puzzled person trying to figure out what is being got across? Has it occurred to you that perhaps, just perhaps, you did not have much to put across in the first instance? Or does it follow automatically that any obiter dicta from your side must necessarily be correct, and anyone opposing it must be selectively or indiscriminately ignorant?

You may like to clarify if you are to be accepted as scriptural authority.

Not as clear as someone who's plans call for deployment of Army special forces for policing, manning traffic signals, and maybe even writing down challaans.

Selective ignorance, Sir? This was never proposed; it was, however, proposed that ordinary policemen should be kept at a higher level of fitness. It is possible that you may not be selectively ignorant; perhaps selectivity had nothing to do with it.

You are truly an intriguing one - you try delving into the beginnings of the British Raj (as if that was the issue of discussion here) in an attempt to give a historical perspective to your views. But you only want to delve up till a certain point. :LOL: You don't want to go any deeper, afraid of whether the perspective that then emerges provides a completely different result!

Please, Sir, point to specific instances where going any deeper provides a deeper perspective. Please start by asking yourself why the Queen's Horse Guards are preceded by a mounted Inspector.

Sorry I was preoccupied with my exams & project submissions. Promise to be more active on the forum from now on.

We are gratified.

Huh. Extremely interesting.

I think you can find a better audience for this here: Off-Topic Chit-Chat

Now back to the strange matter of the bullet that did not ricochet......or similar heavily intense topics.

Or better still - why not remove the hassle of inter-agency communication and command issues and move this specialized unit under the control of the Police? I'm always for people putting up interesting new perspectives - but your's is truly interesting: completely opposite to the way the law-enforcement & military personnel think the world over.

And that, Sir, is a disqualification?

But I must ask you - do you do this simply because you think you'll have more of a 'distinction' factor if you say the Sun rises in the West? :rolleyes:

An interesting thought - that you, Sir, think that anyone who opposes your views, not you, but your views is necessarily propelled by a desire to gain prominence.

If this were not so buffoonish a comment, it would be a sad reflection.

Is it also this urge that makes you yell 'SCAM' at a specialization? It appears you deny the existence of any difference whatsoever between what one typed of armed personnel do from the other - everyone is just there to look cool and rip off the public?

No, Sir, it is not this urge, and you would do well to consider the possibility that the urge is not necessary; you might have the need, others might not.

This site is actually in need of writers who present new and unique opinions - I seriously suggest you get down to writing an article centered around busting the biggest scam in human history - the military!

Could I start, Sir, with the second biggest scam, the military expert who has yet to clear his exams and his project papers and questions those with somewhat more experience and information than that?

Suitably but simply :ROFLMAO:. Sir, may I have the pleasure of knowing from you what 'simple' equipment is?

Yes, Sir, you may; please ask the idiot who showed pictures of policemen using shotguns, and waxed eloquent about the rarity of shotguns in the country. A shotgun, as used by various sundry dacoits in the Chambal, is simple equipment.

...and btw, we already have such units: the SWAT/QRTs.

Thereby once again missing the point that SWAT/QRT units came later, armed policemen came earlier.

Yea...saying 'Sir' half a dozen times in each paragraph. :D Maybe if you stop dedicating all your concentration to make sure you have met your Sir quota for the post, you'd actually start posting something of value which actually corresponds to the topic.

Sir, I was trying to be polite, and to maintain the polite fiction that this is a discussion between equals.

Incidentally, since beginning to communicate on the Net or near equivalents from 1992 onwards, on CiX, it has been a common and recurring feature, most tellingly used by our Pakistani friends, that on running out of defences, one sprinkled emoticons all over one's posts. It may be pleasing to learn that this helpless admission of weakness is now approximately twenty five years old in the country.

For the first time, your posts made be contemplate all jobs in the country (cooks, clerks, lawyers, teachers etc.) to be performed by Armymen. So it is not so curious, but actually grossly amusing.

Thank you for your insults, Sir.

That said, I must reiterate that this thread is for keeping track of the developments in the various Police special units that are present & operating across the country - presenting a view which says they shouldn't exist is like saying aircraft should never have been made. I'm not saying that view should not be presented, but that's something which makes for an Opinion Piece - and we have a separate section for that.

Nobody stopped you. Nobody is stopping you. It was merely pointed out that these stupidities were not essential, but were the symptoms of empire building by the bureaucracy. If you are so irritated by that interruption that you stop, stoop to denigration of an entirely unknown individual, impute self-glorifying motives to him, and refuse to think, that is nobody's fault but your own.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
984
2,001
25
Vizag, India
Dear Sir, you may count my quota as starting from this point. On the comparatively unimportant subject of what you wrote, might it be asked if the fault is that of the getting across or of the puzzled person trying to figure out what is being got across? Has it occurred to you that perhaps, just perhaps, you did not have much to put across in the first instance? Or does it follow automatically that any obiter dicta from your side must necessarily be correct, and anyone opposing it must be selectively or indiscriminately ignorant?

You may like to clarify if you are to be accepted as scriptural authority.

What I wanted to get across, I already have to the people who read this thread. My statement was about you, sir.

My point about the purchase of helmets was made to show what you might consider as 'empire building'. Then arises the question: is it empire building only if Police/Law-Enforcement do it? If the military does it, it is not? Why this discrepancy in your views?

If the military needs jets, ships, missiles & helicopters to keep its land, sea and air-based war-fighting capability well-oiled, there is nothing wrong - but if the Police wants to keep a specialized unit tasked for quick-reaction to tactical situations which the usual Policemen cannot handle, that is empire-building?

And you know fully well in what context I had used the example of helmets - yet you choose to ignore the point I'm making and instead decide to use it as a means of deriding what I'm talking about. Hence, the question of selective ignorance comes into play.

Have I made myself clear?

This was never proposed;

That was exaggeration on my part of something you had proposed: to show what the full extent of what you are saying could mean. Internationally, special intervention units are provided for the Police Dept. - to afford a capability of dealing with threats which the usual Policemen (who, as you would like, are geared for 'healthy' interaction with the public and be of assistance is solving domestic, civil & criminal issues) cannot handle and which cannot wait for centralized forces to arrive.

These are approaches and organizational structures that transcend borders, races, types of government (democracy/authoritarian regime), levels of bureaucratic corruption, and even the level & variety of threat involved. There are varying formations, tactics, and equipment - for example, a Brazilian Police unit tasked for hostage-rescues and taking down drug kingpins among the Favelas of Rio operate very differently from a Metropolitan SWAT that responds to situations in uptown Manhattan....and those are very different to our own SOG personnel of JKP.

But one thing is common: they're all Police. There is a fundamental role of modern Police forces here which you are completely missing. If you are accusing the Indian Govt.'s Babudom of corruption, that is an observation which many would concur with (including me), but if you are accusing the entire governance mechanism of the whole goddamn world in the same sense and calling specialized Police units as empire-building by Babus (who, btw, don't know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of), that sir, is no longer an opinion - it is full blown conspiracy theory.

One which I don't agree with.

it was, however, proposed that ordinary policemen should be kept at a higher level of fitness.

Only fitness, sir? Nothing else, only fitness?

I wonder why, then, that the Army needs tanks & missiles? When we can just scare the enemy away by baring our fit bodies at them? After all the 7.62x39 bullets fired by the terrorists which Punjab SWAT dispatched don't behave any differently from the 7.62x39 bullets fired by Pak Army.

It is possible that you may not be selectively ignorant; perhaps selectivity had nothing to do with it.

Given the estimated vastness of the universe sir, anything is possible.

But if we choose to say Space exploration is empire-building by politicians like JFK, then ignorant is all we will ever be.

Now back to the strange matter of the bullet that did not ricochet......or similar heavily intense topics.

No one is being forced to partake in petty discussions. If at any moment you feel the content is this thread is not worth your precious time, you are free to leave.

And that, Sir, is a disqualification?

As I said - it's interesting. About as interesting as listening to someone going on about how the Earth is flat....when the world is already functioning on the principle of a spherical Earth.

You saying SWAT/QRTs are unnecessary, while the people who have had far greater experience and involvement in these operations say otherwise, then to youngsters like us you come across as living in your own world. In order to quell that opinion of people like me, you can put forth convincing arguments (if you actually care...or have anything to say at all), which you have failed to do so far and instead choose to fly off into irrelevant discussions about the Queen and her horses....garnished with a condescending (to me personally, don't know about others) attempt at writing heavily cultured, eloquently put-together phrases and references and quotes...only to come across as someone tripping on acid.

And....damn, conversing with you for so long, now it seems I'm about to enter a trip of my own! :D Thanks much, Sir!

An interesting thought - that you, Sir, think that anyone who opposes your views, not you, but your views is necessarily propelled by a desire to gain prominence.

If this were not so buffoonish a comment, it would be a sad reflection.

There is no need to think hard about that, sir - I'm saying on record that I'm merely here to try and gain prominence.

No, Sir, it is not this urge, and you would do well to consider the possibility that the urge is not necessary; you might have the need, others might not.

Hmm...yes, I feel the need. The Need for Speed!

Could I start, Sir, with the second biggest scam, the military expert who has yet to clear his exams and his project papers and questions those with somewhat more experience and information than that?

Yes, do start with that.

Do you feel the need to involve the CAG to help you sort through the mess that is me?

Yes, Sir, you may; please ask the idiot who showed pictures of policemen using shotguns, and waxed eloquent about the rarity of shotguns in the country. A shotgun, as used by various sundry dacoits in the Chambal, is simple equipment.

And how many of these shotguns are being used right now, sir? How do they stack up against the number of other types of firearms used? If you'd compare the frequency of shotguns showing up as opposed to other categories, or If you would care to look a little bit outside the country as well (US, for example), and compare the frequency of usage & employment of shotguns in law-enforcement, you would get a better picture of the point I'm making.

And btw, you are free to disagree, or make counter-arguments with anyone - but calling them an idiot is not in line with the rules of the forum. Please learn to control your language before you attempt to control which unit should execute which tactical operation.

Thereby once again missing the point that SWAT/QRT units came later, armed policemen came earlier.

'Armed' is not a blanket description. A person holding a two-shot Derringer pistol is armed. A person holding a full automatic AKM is also armed. Yet if you attempt to make the Derringer-holding gentlemen neutralize the threat posed by the AK-armed assailant - you are extremely likely to get disastrous results.

This amounts to not just a blatant disregard for the Police's effectiveness against threats they are likely to face - but also to a disregard for civilian life, and the threat that is imposed on them by the inability of the Police to handle situations that threaten the safety & security of the public that fall under it's mandate.

But obviously none of this matters to someone who's proposing what is just a few steps short of an alternate reality!

Sir, I was trying to be polite, and to maintain the polite fiction that this is a discussion between equals.

You're welcome - but there's really no need to act so respectful - especially if you're willing to call that person an idiot immediately thereafter because he doesn't agree with your views. That's just you insulting yourself - and dare I say, a misuse and maybe even a disrespect for the term you are so fond of abusing. But then again - who am I to tell you how to talk? Do so as you please - abuse the word 'Sir' for all the sarcastic gimmickry you seem to enjoy doing.

But I am tasked with discouraging use of such language when addressing another member. Hence, a warning point has been handed to you.

Incidentally, since beginning to communicate on the Net or near equivalents from 1992 onwards, on CiX, it has been a common and recurring feature, most tellingly used by our Pakistani friends,

Speaking of Pakistanis, I think you can actually get along pretty fine with them. There is a prevailing practice of the Army poking it's fingers in everything (including where it must not and where it clearly does not need to), and I'm fairly certain you will enjoy that environment very much.

At least maybe in Pakistan, your fantasy of Army doing everything maybe fulfilled....ALAS! It does not happen even there!

Pakistani Police has dedicated QRTs and Specialized units geared for First Response under the Interior Ministry. Gods! How did this happen?? In Pakistan, Army calls the shots - so how these wicked, wannabe empire-builder politicians manage to steal such a golden egg-laying goose from under the nose of the Army?

I hope that you will share your limitless knowledge and expertise to set this mystery to rest.

Is it....is it possible that Specialized intervention units are actually a necessity?

that on running out of defences, one sprinkled emoticons all over one's posts.

Posting emoticons is helpless admission of weakness? For sure that is your wisdom of the ages.

So much so that as soon as I posted one, you posted two!

Does this mean you are doubly as weak as me? Or does it mean that only the person who uses emoticons first in a conversation of replies between two forum members is the one admitting defeat and any emoticons posted after that (by anyone) do not count?

I'm afraid I'm yet to learn that such unspoken rules exist in the world of chat forums....where one has to gratify oneself of superiority (or of winning the argument) because the other person decided to post a emoji to convey a better understanding of the tone & content of the line/sentence it follows.

So a person's posts on the forum are to be taken seriously only until that person does not use emoticons...after a person has used emoticons, he is helplessly weak? And you call me an idiot.

is now approximately twenty five years old in the country.

Sir, there is no need of approximation. My age is provided in my profile. I'm 21 years old.

Funny that you have inhabited message boards of this sort since 1992 (some 4 years before I was even born), and yet you still haven't learnt that when you want to find more information about a particular poster, the place to look is that poster's profile.

Never mind - you learn something new every day.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Since you have decided, Sir, to abuse your privileges, and to use those to ensure alignment with your views. I leave the discussion to yourself and to your mirror image.

Thank you for the insult. It is one that has not come my way in eight years of posting in an extremely hostile environment, and from moderators and administrators determined to grind down all opposed to their views. You are to be congratulated on your distinction. My compliments to you.
 

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
273
244
Delhi
Since you have decided, Sir, to abuse your privileges, and to use those to ensure alignment with your views. I leave the discussion to yourself and to your mirror image.

Thank you for the insult. It is one that has not come my way in eight years of posting in an extremely hostile environment, and from moderators and administrators determined to grind down all opposed to their views. You are to be congratulated on your distinction. My compliments to you.
Wow, sounds like of ego.

BTW, this is pretty easy to hide behind anonymity, and become a keyboard warrior. And spread the gyan, like you are the next Einstein.

Do one thing, be a man, have some guts, and come up with your real personality.

Here, Admins promote real personalities, instead of anonymity. Lol, next step might be linking accounts with Aadhar.

So, instead of talking morality, apply such morality on yourself. And come up with a human being which you are.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Volcano and Parthu

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Wow, sounds like of ego.

BTW, this is pretty easy to hide behind anonymity, and become a keyboard warrior. And spread the gyan, like you are the next Einstein.

Do one thing, be a man, have some guts, and come up with your real personality.

Here, Admins promote real personalities, instead of anonymity. Lol, next step might be linking accounts with Aadhar.

So, instead of talking morality, apply such morality on yourself. And come up with a human being which you are.

Let us leave it to the admin team to exercise their finely honed forensic skills and find out. Now, dear Sir, stick to the thread. You will add to the vast treasure trove of human knowledge.
 

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
273
244
Delhi
Let us leave it to the admin team to exercise their finely honed forensic skills and find out. Now, dear Sir, stick to the thread. You will add to the vast treasure trove of human knowledge.

So, you are hell bent to remain a keyboard warrior. Good for you. This cleared lot of fog about you.

BTW, getting a person identity is not forensics. Lol. Forensics is for crime.