Indian Police (Special Units): SWAT & QRTs

Parthu

Gessler
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Dec 1, 2017
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This is a thread dedicated for discussing & keeping up with the developments in the field of Special Weapons And Tactics and/or Quick-Reaction Teams employed by the various Indian states' Police Departments, as well as special units under the control of Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs).



Everything regarding the personnel, equipment, vehicles etc. is up for discussion.

@Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Vergennes @smestarz
 
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Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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via INDRA Networks

The Punjab Police's new Special Security Group (SSG) were seen in their pixelated camoflague fatigues. The SSG units carry out more menial/regular duties while the really tasking activities like hostage-rescue etc. are carried out by the Punjab SWAT.




^^ Note the holster on the guy in front...with what seems to be a Glock
 
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bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
Dear Gentlemen,

While you are furthering a distressing trend, it is not for members to question your policy and directions that you set. However, on a point of clarification, will the equipment and organisation, and policy governing border guards be part of this thread, or is it the intention to start a separate thread for those?
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
992
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Vizag, India
Dear Gentlemen,

While you are furthering a distressing trend, it is not for members to question your policy and directions that you set.

What is the cause of distress, sir?

However, on a point of clarification, will the equipment and organisation, and policy governing border guards be part of this thread, or is it the intention to start a separate thread for those?

A dedicated thread for the Border Security Force (BSF) will be created in due course.
 
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bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
What is the cause of distress, sir?

Sir, The reference is to the world-wide trend of mistaking the role of the police force as one of aping the military. SWAT teams are dangerous and distract attention from the true role of the police in the context of terrorism: to support intelligence agencies to gather local data and information. A few moments' reflection will show that militarising policemen has the unpleasant side effect of their behaviour creeping out of that box and into general behaviour towards their 'clients', the general public - you and I, unless you are already a senior police official with a personal security detachment for your protection and the protection of your family. While police budgets are drained into this hugely wasteful expenditure, and into an activity of which the end-result is normally pages after pages of glossy pictures of singularly bovine individuals in self-glorifying poses. It would be far better to bring the policeman-citizen ratio to somewhere close to international levels, and to spend significant sums of money leaching out torture from normal, standard methods of police process, and improving interrogation skills and techniques, and also to ensure that the present rule, of a policeman being on duty 24 hours at a time, is ameliorated and some relief brought to these unfortunate individuals.

However, in a defence journal, it is inevitable that such a glorious opportunity cannot be denied, and we will see lots and lots of 'beefcake' pictures in the days to come.



A dedicated thread for the Border Security Force (BSF) will be created in due course.

Thank you, Sir.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
992
2,028
25
Vizag, India
Sir, The reference is to the world-wide trend of mistaking the role of the police force as one of aping the military. SWAT teams are dangerous and distract attention from the true role of the police in the context of terrorism: to support intelligence agencies to gather local data and information. A few moments' reflection will show that militarising policemen has the unpleasant side effect of their behaviour creeping out of that box and into general behaviour towards their 'clients', the general public - you and I, unless you are already a senior police official with a personal security detachment for your protection and the protection of your family. While police budgets are drained into this hugely wasteful expenditure, and into an activity of which the end-result is normally pages after pages of glossy pictures of singularly bovine individuals in self-glorifying poses. It would be far better to bring the policeman-citizen ratio to somewhere close to international levels, and to spend significant sums of money leaching out torture from normal, standard methods of police process, and improving interrogation skills and techniques, and also to ensure that the present rule, of a policeman being on duty 24 hours at a time, is ameliorated and some relief brought to these unfortunate individuals.

However, in a defence journal, it is inevitable that such a glorious opportunity cannot be denied, and we will see lots and lots of 'beefcake' pictures in the days to come.

I understood your views regarding the militarization of Police forces (this is a much bigger issue in the West, particularly the US, than in India). But while I concur with your opinion regarding much-needed large scale Police reforms, I must reiterate the importance of tactical intervention units within the Police force.

The key aspect here is time. The time it takes for a central unit like the NSG (in spite of the regional hubs) to respond to a situation requiring their expertise is simply not acceptable (not to mention the obvious inter-agency coordination issues that can & will emerge as a situation develops): as it has been concluded time & again across the world that one of the most significant (if not the most significant) roles in curtailing an active shooter (can be a terrorist or otherwise) is performed by the First Responders on scene. When the situation does go bad, NSG will have to come nevertheless, but the First Responders to any such incident, especially in a metropolitan city, will HAVE to be the Police.

The better equipped these first responders are, the better the chances that the shooter(s) will be subdued before they get an opportunity to cause further damage. Having a well-equipped tactical team available for tasking at short notice, placed within the command of the Police Dept. furthers the efficiency of these first encounters. Kindly go over the events of 26/11. The 'First Responders' had handguns, Ishapore bolt-action rifles and dandas....while the terrorists had them outgunned with AKs, making the Police unable to effectively return fire or contain/suppress the shooters.

This is what prompted the Maharashtra Govt. to create a unit like Force One.


Pic credit: INDRA Networks

Bottom-line from my side is: militarization of Police is but a cause-and-effect situation. Why Police units need the kind of weapons & equipment that previously only the military used to have? It's because the needs demand it! When you have terrorists with full-automatic assault rifles shooting up cities like Mumbai, you obviously can-not and must-not make it so that the response comes in the form of 9mm handguns and revolvers!

Firepower is but a tool to gain immediate tactical advantage over the opponent.

I'm of the genuine opinion that most of the 'militarized behavior of Police creeping over to their behavior toward citizenry' aspect you are concerned about is actually NOT much of an issue with Indian Police...at least nowhere as much as it is with their American counterparts.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
I understood your views regarding the militarization of Police forces (this is a much bigger issue in the West, particularly the US, than in India). But while I concur with your opinion regarding much-needed large scale Police reforms, I must reiterate the importance of tactical intervention units within the Police force.

The key aspect here is time. The time it takes for a central unit like the NSG (in spite of the regional hubs) to respond to a situation requiring their expertise is simply not acceptable (not to mention the obvious inter-agency coordination issues that can & will emerge as a situation develops): as it has been concluded time & again across the world that one of the most significant (if not the most significant) roles in curtailing an active shooter (can be a terrorist or otherwise) is performed by the First Responders on scene. When the situation does go bad, NSG will have to come nevertheless, but the First Responders to any such incident, especially in a metropolitan city, will HAVE to be the Police.

The better equipped these first responders are, the better the chances that the shooter(s) will be subdued before they get an opportunity to cause further damage. Having a well-equipped tactical team available for tasking at short notice, placed within the command of the Police Dept. furthers the efficiency of these first encounters. Kindly go over the events of 26/11. The 'First Responders' had handguns, Ishapore bolt-action rifles and dandas....while the terrorists had them outgunned with AKs, making the Police unable to effectively return fire or contain/suppress the shooters.

This is what prompted the Maharashtra Govt. to create a unit like Force One.


Pic credit: INDRA Networks

Bottom-line from my side is: militarization of Police is but a cause-and-effect situation. Why Police units need the kind of weapons & equipment that previously only the military used to have? It's because the needs demand it! When you have terrorists with full-automatic assault rifles shooting up cities like Mumbai, you obviously can-not and must-not make it so that the response comes in the form of 9mm handguns and revolvers!

Firepower is but a tool to gain immediate tactical advantage over the opponent.

I'm of the genuine opinion that most of the 'militarized behavior of Police creeping over to their behavior toward citizenry' aspect you are concerned about is actually NOT much of an issue with Indian Police...at least nowhere as much as it is with their American counterparts.

Dear Sir, It has to be admitted that you have a point, albeit one that I do not necessarily agree with. Rather than derail your very worthwhile initiative, might I mention that the Army was traditionally called out whenever the civilian power was unable to cope; in Calcutta, in the exact same situation, I would have expected Fort William to be in the loop sooner rather than later (in spite of both the Calcutta Police, an autonomous body under its Commissioner for over a century, and the Bengal Police have dedicated Armed Police contingents who, in their time, fought the then BDR to a standstill), and I would have expected Ghataks to be available within half an hour. There is no logical reason why Ghatak platoons should not be available from the Area HQ within the hour. In Scotland, the jury might bring in a verdict of not proven.
Having said that, please consider that the other major area of concern, a distraction far more lethal, is to take away mind-space of the policemen, their civilian counterparts, and the general public from the urgent need for reforms to policing as it is properly understood.
Your next posts, returning to your original purpose, are keenly anticipated.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
992
2,028
25
Vizag, India
Dear Sir, It has to be admitted that you have a point, albeit one that I do not necessarily agree with. Rather than derail your very worthwhile initiative, might I mention that the Army was traditionally called out whenever the civilian power was unable to cope; in Calcutta, in the exact same situation, I would have expected Fort William to be in the loop sooner rather than later (in spite of both the Calcutta Police, an autonomous body under its Commissioner for over a century, and the Bengal Police have dedicated Armed Police contingents who, in their time, fought the then BDR to a standstill), and I would have expected Ghataks to be available within half an hour. There is no logical reason why Ghatak platoons should not be available from the Area HQ within the hour. In Scotland, the jury might bring in a verdict of not proven.
Having said that, please consider that the other major area of concern, a distraction far more lethal, is to take away mind-space of the policemen, their civilian counterparts, and the general public from the urgent need for reforms to policing as it is properly understood.
Your next posts, returning to your original purpose, are keenly anticipated.

I must say I do not agree with your insistence of bringing in the Army to resolve what is, at it's core, an internal law-enforcement (LE) issue. If you think having highly equipped tactical teams within the Police Dept. is not recommendable, then trust me, involving the Army in such domestic law enforcement duties will have far more destabilizing effects - socially & politically.

At their core, Police special units are trained & function differently from Army special forces. Let's take the example of US itself (where the 'militarization' of LE is at it's peaks). A SWAT unit in the US is trained to save lives - as such their intention is to apprehend, not injure or kill, the suspects. Even then, they are taught to prioritize the safety of civilian life over the apprehension of suspects. The military is different - I'm not saying it's impossible to develop these skills in the military (in India, it's already being done to an extent with the creation of large counter-insurgency forces like Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles who receive unique training in this regard), but that there SHOULDN'T be a need to involve an 'external' force like the Army in what are 'internal' law & order issues. In certain parts of the country like J&K and the North-East, the situation is very different compared to places like Chennai, Kanpur or Bangalore.

Not to mention: involvement of Armed Forces in domestic affairs is not a healthy signal for the international community. Bringing in the Army is more or less a symbol of local law & order having completely lost control of the situation. That's a bad sign.

There was an incident earlier this year where there was a high-stakes robbery attempt in a Finance center hear in Hyderabad, where OCTOPUS was deployed to capture the armed suspects: Failed Muthoot heist: Cyberabad police conduct midnight manhunt with elite Octopus forces

This is because the usual Policeman with his baton is neither trained nor equipped to track down and apprehend a large group of armed criminals. That happens only in movies. Now imagine a unit a OCTOPUS did not exist. Imagine deploying Army special forces to track down robbers! That would be only be seen as a gross failure of law enforcement agencies.

All in all, I'd say having tactical units under Police Dept. is an absolute necessity in the modern day & age. The threshold of bringing in the Army (or National Guard in US case) should be set as high as possible - not as low as possible as you are suggesting.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
887
413
I must say I do not agree with your insistence of bringing in the Army to resolve what is, at it's core, an internal law-enforcement (LE) issue. If you think having highly equipped tactical teams within the Police Dept. is not recommendable, then trust me, involving the Army in such domestic law enforcement duties will have far more destabilizing effects - socially & politically.

At their core, Police special units are trained & function differently from Army special forces. Let's take the example of US itself (where the 'militarization' of LE is at it's peaks). A SWAT unit in the US is trained to save lives - as such their intention is to apprehend, not injure or kill, the suspects. Even then, they are taught to prioritize the safety of civilian life over the apprehension of suspects. The military is different - I'm not saying it's impossible to develop these skills in the military (in India, it's already being done to an extent with the creation of large counter-insurgency forces like Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles who receive unique training in this regard), but that there SHOULDN'T be a need to involve an 'external' force like the Army in what are 'internal' law & order issues. In certain parts of the country like J&K and the North-East, the situation is very different compared to places like Chennai, Kanpur or Bangalore.

Not to mention: involvement of Armed Forces in domestic affairs is not a healthy signal for the international community. Bringing in the Army is more or less a symbol of local law & order having completely lost control of the situation. That's a bad sign.

There was an incident earlier this year where there was a high-stakes robbery attempt in a Finance center hear in Hyderabad, where OCTOPUS was deployed to capture the armed suspects: Failed Muthoot heist: Cyberabad police conduct midnight manhunt with elite Octopus forces

This is because the usual Policeman with his baton is neither trained nor equipped to track down and apprehend a large group of armed criminals. That happens only in movies. Now imagine a unit a OCTOPUS did not exist. Imagine deploying Army special forces to track down robbers! That would be only be seen as a gross failure of law enforcement agencies.

All in all, I'd say having tactical units under Police Dept. is an absolute necessity in the modern day & age. The threshold of bringing in the Army (or National Guard in US case) should be set as high as possible - not as low as possible as you are suggesting.

Dear Sir, Your second note remains as persuasive and convincing as your original note. Let us agree to disagree.
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
510
405
Dear Sir, Your second note remains as persuasive and convincing as your original note. Let us agree to disagree.
Taking into your idea that it is better to have Army units forming CT and HRT roles ... Then Simply Question - Why was the need for the NSG to be formed?

Please answer!
 
F

Falcon

Sir, The reference is to the world-wide trend of mistaking the role of the police force as one of aping the military. .


I absolutely agree with you here sir. I find it pretty amusing to see the belly hanging out of member no3 of the 5 man detail. Somehow I have never understood the efficacy of this approach of lining up and posting weapons over the shoulder of the other.

It is based on an assumption of the other side being a case fit for 'retard of the year' title if they would not exploit the flawed approach and strike from the left of the detail. The position, that of being closely compressed group and of having weapons to the right and near shoulder of one in front of you, precludes a timely swivel to the left to engage the opponent (assuming that the opponent is foolish enough and incompetent enough to not eliminate them with the first burst of fire itself).

Also more hilarious is the tendency of putting on dark framed eye wear, to give a look of being 'cool' and sophistication. The premise that here is no glint off these is the interesting bit.

The argument can be made that these protect the eyes from glare related blind spot upon immediate intervention into a darkened and shaded area, but it also works in the opposite as that also creates a situation where in the eyewear has to be removed and secured. TIme and of course, noise give away is a factor.
 
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F

Falcon

I must say I do not agree with your insistence of bringing in the Army to resolve what is, at it's core, an internal law-enforcement (LE) issue. If you think having highly equipped tactical teams within the Police Dept. is not recommendable, then trust me, involving the Army in such domestic law enforcement duties will have far more destabilizing effects - socially & politically.

At their core, Police special units are trained & function differently from Army special forces. Let's take the example of US itself (where the 'militarization' of LE is at it's peaks). A SWAT unit in the US is trained to save lives - as such their intention is to apprehend, not injure or kill, the suspects. Even then, they are taught to prioritize the safety of civilian life over the apprehension of suspects. The military is different - I'm not saying it's impossible to develop these skills in the military (in India, it's already being done to an extent with the creation of large counter-insurgency forces like Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles who receive unique training in this regard), but that there SHOULDN'T be a need to involve an 'external' force like the Army in what are 'internal' law & order issues. In certain parts of the country like J&K and the North-East, the situation is very different compared to places like Chennai, Kanpur or Bangalore.

Not to mention: involvement of Armed Forces in domestic affairs is not a healthy signal for the international community. Bringing in the Army is more or less a symbol of local law & order having completely lost control of the situation. That's a bad sign.

There was an incident earlier this year where there was a high-stakes robbery attempt in a Finance center hear in Hyderabad, where OCTOPUS was deployed to capture the armed suspects: Failed Muthoot heist: Cyberabad police conduct midnight manhunt with elite Octopus forces

This is because the usual Policeman with his baton is neither trained nor equipped to track down and apprehend a large group of armed criminals. That happens only in movies. Now imagine a unit a OCTOPUS did not exist. Imagine deploying Army special forces to track down robbers! That would be only be seen as a gross failure of law enforcement agencies.

All in all, I'd say having tactical units under Police Dept. is an absolute necessity in the modern day & age. The threshold of bringing in the Army (or National Guard in US case) should be set as high as possible - not as low as possible as you are suggesting.


My Dear Sir.

What the member is trying to convey, and here is my understanding of the very same, is the necessity to prevent militarisation of what essentially is a civil task.

Police is a force meant to 'police' the citizenry. By virtue of the word and the tasks allocated, it involves prevention and then detection of crimes if any. The key word here is prevention.

It is that aspect that the member refers to. In either case, even when there is suspected hostage/terror situation, it is the NSG and Army which is brought in. Can you elaborate on one specific incident wherein the local law enforcement's 'elites' have been used to tackle a situation of hostage/terror?

This stratification by India and many other countries of the world, was done for a reason, to allow an 'escalatory ladder' if you may, to provide varying degrees of options for the government to use to meet the challenges of any situation in a manner of proportionate force.

If the Police forces increasingly militarize, you short circuit the route to employment of deadly force, at times to devastating effects. The inherent delay in the ladder as formed at present, allows flexibility in mulling over options and at times permitting sensible approach not necessarily amounting to employment of lethal force.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
992
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25
Vizag, India
I absolutely agree with you here sir. I find it pretty amusing to see the belly hanging out of member no3 of the 5 man detail. Somehow I have never understood the efficacy of this approach of lining up and posting weapons over the shoulder of the other.

It is based on an assumption of the other side being a case fit for 'retard of the year' title if they would not exploit the flawed approach and strike from the left of the detail. The position, that of being closely compressed group and of having weapons to the right and near shoulder of one in front of you, precludes a timely swivel to the left to engage the opponent (assuming that the opponent is foolish enough and incompetent enough to not eliminate them with the first burst of fire itself).

This is them posing for a picture. When this formation is adopted in a situation (all guns to the right), it is because there is a wall or some form of cover on the left, which eliminates the need for the officers to scan that region, like this:



When proceeding single-file when there is no cover on either side, the operators distribute their fire sectors to both directions.

Also more hilarious is the tendency of putting on dark framed eye wear, to give a look of being 'cool' and sophistication. The premise that here is no glint off these is the interesting bit.

The argument can be made that these protect the eyes from glare related blind spot upon immediate intervention into a darkened and shaded area, but it also works in the opposite as that also creates a situation where in the eyewear has to be removed and secured. TIme and of course, noise give away is a factor.

Not just for glare protection, but also to protect the eyes from small projectiles & fragments.

Ballistic eyewear - Wikipedia

My Dear Sir.

What the member is trying to convey, and here is my understanding of the very same, is the necessity to prevent militarisation of what essentially is a civil task.

Police is a force meant to 'police' the citizenry. By virtue of the word and the tasks allocated, it involves prevention and then detection of crimes if any. The key word here is prevention.

Sir, the employment of tactical force, as I previously said, is tantamount to the requirement. No one is dispatching SWAT with assault rifles to deal with a case of domestic violence. Not in this country.

Even in the US, the first and foremost approach is to negotiate with the shooter(s). It's for this purpose that Crisis Negotiation Teams (CNTs) exist to work alongside tactical units. It's only when attempts to communicate fail, or when the authorities reason that any further delay increases the risk to the civilian lives trapped in the situation, that a decision is made to go tactical and apply force to subdue the threats. Even after SWAT is deployed, their primary goal is always to save lives: they do not shoot suspects by default, their goal is to apprehend, not kill the suspects. Application of lethal force is done only when the suspect refuses to comply with the calls for surrender and poses an immediate risk to the lives of civilians and/or officers.

It is that aspect that the member refers to. In either case, even when there is suspected hostage/terror situation, it is the NSG and Army which is brought in. Can you elaborate on one specific incident wherein the local law enforcement's 'elites' have been used to tackle a situation of hostage/terror?

Yes - the 2015 Gurdaspur attack. First response was Police, later on the entire operation was led by Punjab SWAT. Army & NSG were alerted and on standby (as they should) but it was SWAT which resolved the situation.

Lack of more such incidents in recent times is actually a good thing - as this shows the Intelligence community is nipping most terror plots in the bud. But that is not and should be a reason for Police forces to remain lax about the acquisition of sufficient tactical capability to subdue threats as quickly and as neatly as possible when & if they emerge.

One should not have waited for a 26/11 to happen before localized tactical units are brought to bear. One cannot sit waiting for NSG. Kindly read this: ‘Force One’ building inaugurated in Mumbai

" The ‘Force One’ was formed to reduce the response time in case of a terror attack here as it took nine hours for the NSG to fly to Mumbai to take charge of the troubled sites during the dastardly 26/11 terror attacks in the city, which left 166 people dead and over 300 injured. "

Now imagine a capable tactical response that comes within a half-hour of first reports of gunmen. Imagine how many lives could have been saved. The formation of such units the world over is not done to look cool or ape the military: it is the result of years of tactical analysis and proposals by experts in the field of law-enforcement.
 

RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Banned
Dec 2, 2017
1,654
1,949
USA
I understood your views regarding the militarization of Police forces (this is a much bigger issue in the West, particularly the US, than in India). But while I concur with your opinion regarding much-needed large scale Police reforms, I must reiterate the importance of tactical intervention units within the Police force.

The key aspect here is time. The time it takes for a central unit like the NSG (in spite of the regional hubs) to respond to a situation requiring their expertise is simply not acceptable (not to mention the obvious inter-agency coordination issues that can & will emerge as a situation develops): as it has been concluded time & again across the world that one of the most significant (if not the most significant) roles in curtailing an active shooter (can be a terrorist or otherwise) is performed by the First Responders on scene. When the situation does go bad, NSG will have to come nevertheless, but the First Responders to any such incident, especially in a metropolitan city, will HAVE to be the Police.

The better equipped these first responders are, the better the chances that the shooter(s) will be subdued before they get an opportunity to cause further damage. Having a well-equipped tactical team available for tasking at short notice, placed within the command of the Police Dept. furthers the efficiency of these first encounters. Kindly go over the events of 26/11. The 'First Responders' had handguns, Ishapore bolt-action rifles and dandas....while the terrorists had them outgunned with AKs, making the Police unable to effectively return fire or contain/suppress the shooters.

This is what prompted the Maharashtra Govt. to create a unit like Force One.


Pic credit: INDRA Networks

Bottom-line from my side is: militarization of Police is but a cause-and-effect situation. Why Police units need the kind of weapons & equipment that previously only the military used to have? It's because the needs demand it! When you have terrorists with full-automatic assault rifles shooting up cities like Mumbai, you obviously can-not and must-not make it so that the response comes in the form of 9mm handguns and revolvers!

Firepower is but a tool to gain immediate tactical advantage over the opponent.

I'm of the genuine opinion that most of the 'militarized behavior of Police creeping over to their behavior toward citizenry' aspect you are concerned about is actually NOT much of an issue with Indian Police...at least nowhere as much as it is with their American counterparts.

Seriously, if anything, India desperately needs a better armed, trained, and larger police force; including and especially, tactical groups like SWAT for big cities prone to things like terror attacks; unless we want to see lathi armed havaldars throwing stones to stop terrorists with AK-47's again.

Also, militarization of the police isn't even close to being one of the pressing issues with the Indian police. I'd say the rampant corruption, lax attitude (especially towards rules and procedure), and the fact that they're spread way too thin are all far bigger issues for Indian police.

And while over-militarization of the police force is a *bit* of an issue over here in the US, I think even over here, the concerns of the liberal groups and media groups are quite overblown. With the sort of guns floating around here and resulting gun violence issues, the prospect of domestic terrorism, and some of the "ghetto" areas (especially in big cities) where drug trade, gang violence and high level weaponry are rampant; a highly militarized police is quite necessary.
 
F

Falcon

Seriously, if anything, India desperately needs a better armed, trained, and larger police force; including and especially, tactical groups like SWAT for big cities prone to things like terror attacks; unless we want to see lathi armed havaldars throwing stones to stop terrorists with AK-47's again.

Also, militarization of the police isn't even close to being one of the pressing issues with the Indian police. I'd say the rampant corruption, lax attitude (especially towards rules and procedure), and the fact that they're spread way too thin are all far bigger issues for Indian police.

And while over-militarization of the police force is a *bit* of an issue over here in the US, I think even over here, the concerns of the liberal groups and media groups are quite overblown. With the sort of guns floating around here and resulting gun violence issues, the prospect of domestic terrorism, and some of the "ghetto" areas (especially in big cities) where drug trade, gang violence and high level weaponry are rampant; a highly militarized police is quite necessary.

Sir.
Again, would you rather have a larger police force being misappropriated to the duties of cover for politicians as status symbol or would you rather have a robust intelligence grid and security measures? (Mr. Laloo Yadav being the latest example)

I can give you a very good example of such a system in place in Russia.

Every citizen is required to carry an internal identification document that bears the citizen's particulars, address and also other details. These also require the citizen to register with the area police station of the region where the citizen is staying and a physical verification is randomly done. One can not be found changing cities without applying for registration with local police station at place of residence in new city within 48 hours (counted for working days only).

This ensures an easy tracking of every citizen and every foreign national. To top it all, the citizen needs an exit visa to leave the country if so desirous.

I will stop here for now, as will be off topic. But isn't prevention better than a suspect cure?
 

Manmohan_MMY

Premiera
Nov 30, 2017
325
106
Space Time
This is a thread dedicated for discussing & keeping up with the developments in the field of Special Weapons And Tactics and/or Quick-Reaction Teams employed by the various Indian states' Police Departments, as well as special units under the control of Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs).



Everything regarding the personnel, equipment, vehicles etc. is up for discussion.

@Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Vergennes @smestarz
Yes I know you love doing all this ?
 
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F

Falcon

This is them posing for a picture. When this formation is adopted in a situation (all guns to the right), it is because there is a wall or some form of cover on the left, which eliminates the need for the officers to scan that region, like this:



When proceeding single-file when there is no cover on either side, the operators distribute their fire sectors to both directions.

Sir.

Forgive my ignorance but the tactical situation of any room intervention have a requirement of consideration of all parameters of potential force being employed against the Law Enforcement Agencies.

In this picture you have posted, and since your argument remains that this single file approach is along a wall or something, I can immediately point out and here I am considering your primary claim of this being an anti-terror operation, that to assume a closely packed and filed approach to a room intervention is conceptually flawed as there is something known as a fragmentation grenade which will shred the intervention team in a go. This logic then falls flat.

I bring to your notice the fact that in any room intervention, the law enforcement agencies at best, will employ stun grenades/smoke grenades/irritants like tear gas. On the other hand, a trained terrorist, of hardened variety as seen from LeT and JeM or even HM, will definitely carry sufficient quantity of fragmentation/thermite grenades.

Knowing the average IQ of the Indian policeman, and the level of training provided to them, would it be a wise decision to incorporate such a tactic knowing fully well that this is flawed? Also, knowing the limitations, what do you think will repetitive training on this model lead to?



Not just for glare protection, but also to protect the eyes from small projectiles & fragments.

Ballistic eyewear - Wikipedia

Sir.
Are you sure that this equipment provided is for ballistic protection? It seems to be a bit hard to digest noting the non-standradization of the footwear itself.

And what level of training are these Police Forces having?






Yes - the 2015 Gurdaspur attack. First response was Police, later on the entire operation was led by Punjab SWAT. Army & NSG were alerted and on standby (as they should) but it was SWAT which resolved the situation.


Sir.

Agreed. But how much time did it take?

Do those who matter and you especially, realise the impact of 'prolonged' duration of contact and an apparent ' ability to hold off security forces' and the value in terms of public relations and recruitment such delays or prolonged intervention times have?

That is something intangible yet a gain for the terrorists. It is a battle of perception that the terrorists fight afterall.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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Taking into your idea that it is better to have Army units forming CT and HRT roles ... Then Simply Question - Why was the need for the NSG to be formed?

Please answer!

There was no need, Sir. It is just another piece of empire-building by a wholly incompetent Home Ministry. Only the SPG is needed, if we take a pleasing and accommodative interpretation of the word 'needed'.

Please take the following passage and let me know if there is any point in setting up over-dressed, under-trained and excessively-hyped three initial units whose only purpose is to give an ego massage to fat babus in MHA, in these circumstances:

Since its raising in 1984, the NSG has had 28 DGs, in 31 years, with an average tenure one year and few months.[10]Many have served as DG just for few months, while waiting for promotion or a more desirable post. None of the DGs has had experience of commanding NSG special actions groups, or any other special forces command experience .[10] All the selected DGs have been officer from Indian Police Service (IPS). As per the government policy, NSG is to be headed by an Officer from IPS. Since the Combat Units under the NSG, which conduct counter terror operations are commanded by the Army Officers, this effectively negates the possibility of any officer with field experience in counter terror operations heading the organisation as its DG at a later stage.

This is the situation at the Government of India level. Are we seriously being told that matters will improve at the State level?
 

GuardianRED

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Dec 2, 2017
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There was no need, Sir. It is just another piece of empire-building by a wholly incompetent Home Ministry. Only the SPG is needed, if we take a pleasing and accommodative interpretation of the word 'needed'.

Please take the following passage and let me know if there is any point in setting up over-dressed, under-trained and excessively-hyped three initial units whose only purpose is to give an ego massage to fat babus in MHA, in these circumstances:

Since its raising in 1984, the NSG has had 28 DGs, in 31 years, with an average tenure one year and few months.[10]Many have served as DG just for few months, while waiting for promotion or a more desirable post. None of the DGs has had experience of commanding NSG special actions groups, or any other special forces command experience .[10] All the selected DGs have been officer from Indian Police Service (IPS). As per the government policy, NSG is to be headed by an Officer from IPS. Since the Combat Units under the NSG, which conduct counter terror operations are commanded by the Army Officers, this effectively negates the possibility of any officer with field experience in counter terror operations heading the organisation as its DG at a later stage.

This is the situation at the Government of India level. Are we seriously being told that matters will improve at the State level?
Sorry a laughable answer + they were not formed for some fat babus or their ego (back then they wouldn't know abt security even if it hits them in their face)

AND you still didn't answer the question !? why the need for the NSG !? ... Ie Operationally (keeping politics out of it)

SPG?? ... are your serious - for CT and HRT roles?? .... Please read up on the role of the SPG and come back!
 
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RATHORE

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Sir.
Again, would you rather have a larger police force being misappropriated to the duties of cover for politicians as status symbol or would you rather have a robust intelligence grid and security measures? (Mr. Laloo Yadav being the latest example)

I can give you a very good example of such a system in place in Russia.

Every citizen is required to carry an internal identification document that bears the citizen's particulars, address and also other details. These also require the citizen to register with the area police station of the region where the citizen is staying and a physical verification is randomly done. One can not be found changing cities without applying for registration with local police station at place of residence in new city within 48 hours (counted for working days only).

This ensures an easy tracking of every citizen and every foreign national. To top it all, the citizen needs an exit visa to leave the country if so desirous.

I will stop here for now, as will be off topic. But isn't prevention better than a suspect cure?

India needs both (and I totally agree with removing large security contingents where they aren't necessary, it's a waste of taxpayer money). But it's a fact that India's police is underarmed, undertrained, underpaid and understaffed. And as a result, they are also very lax when it comes to their jobs and following rules and procedures, as well as notoriously corrupt, which then results in the sort of bad reputation and scorn they receive from common citizens. I am waiting for a Government that shows the will and ability to tackle this gargantuan problem (my best bet is if BJP wins in most states and stays in power at the Center, they might be able to do something).

To the degree of having identification and a database for such information (sort of like the driver's license and voter registration system here in the US), sure I agree with that. I also agree with officially registering your new address with the Government when you relocate (although this is bound to run into unique, India-specific problems, such as the case of people who live in illegal slums). But that alone is not the solution.

India needs a comprehensive rehaul of its police force, and that will also go a long distance towards fixing a lot of problems (and think about it, a bigger police force also means more job openings).