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vstol Jockey

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Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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he did not understand your humour.
About ABV and Lahore bus ? I concede I am a bit too young to understand it when it was happening, but look at what happened after that, if they were sending thousands of regular/irregular soldiers to inhospitable semi-icy peaks I imagine real estate was a tough find in Pakistan at that time. Also if they didn't like ABV there is not a snowflake's chance in hell they would like me.
 

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
12,693
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Buddy, when the economy tanks and you default on payments, the currency will hit a bottomless pit. You may even have a situation that one million PKR will equal just One USD.
I understand very little of economics. If you could could explain how economies(Pakistani in particular) tank, that would be very helpful.
 

The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
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Instead of quoting individual replies, I'll address the main points raised, individually.


On the confirmation of employment of 4x SPICE-2000 SOWs: Some members seem to have the notion that SPICE-250 SOWs (250lbs SDB type weapon system with ~50lbs of explosives) might have been used instead of SPICE-2000 SOWs. I would like to point them to the evidence:
Surgical Strike in Pakistan a Botched Operation?

@Guynextdoor, I agree, given the redundant guidance aboard SPICE kits, and the standing-out nature of the target...my personal assessment is that the SPICE-2000s did not fail. I personally believe they were aimed precisely 100-200m off target, with the intentions of sending a message to Pakistan. That's why I think that in the press release given by the tri-services, the IAF representative avoided placing a number on the casualties and said that "the weapons hit the intended target, and they caused the intended damage. Whatever we intended to destroy, we have got the effect that we desired. Hamaray paas evidence hai, jo ham karna chahtay thay, ham target ko jitna destroy karna chahtay thay, jo effect ham ko chahiye tha wo effect ham ko mil gaya hai". I know this statement can be taken both ways, but it is still food for thought.

On the employment of 'soft' bombs: I'm not sure what exactly some members mean by that. Is there a 2000lbs anti-personnel munition that is operational with the IAF? If yes, can we all have some credible information on that? Is there a Russian/US/Israeli munition with similar characteristics?
P.S. Israel used SDBs or SPICE-250s in the Syrian Tyas T4 strike.

On the employment of penetrating munitions: It is evident from the ground and satellite imagery that the structure in question is non-hardened. Why would IAF employ penetrating (aka bunker-busting) munitions here? General purpose guided munitions with delayed fuses are enough for these type of structures. However it should be kept in mind that even 4x 2000lbs penetrating munitions amount up to 8000lbs of total ordinance (of which up to 2000lbs can be explosive). This much amount of explosive ordinance would have blew the said 30x30m structure to smithereens.

On the FAEs/Freshly dug ground/Mass grave theories: I'm not sure how members arrive at this conclusion, given the only thing that's discernible is the darker hue of the soil, which might as well have come from ill-drained rain water. Take a look at the image from GE, dated 28/09/2017. Maybe JeM was developing and testing FAEs, or digging mass graves on a regular basis.

On the hole in the tail of the Mi-17: It is absolutely possible that a cylindrical component inside the tail caused the punched out hole. It is equally possible that the helicopter fell on a cylindrical object. However, regarding the missile theory, members seem to have the notion that holes like that have to be punched IN from the side for a projectile hit to have taken place, which is true...but I'd like to point out that such a projectile would also cause a punched OUT hole on the other side, which I believe is the one visible here. After all, such projectiles don't just punch in from one side, and stop right there. However it is apparent that if it was a missile, it didn't detonate on contact.

On the Indian demonstration of will to strike back: Agreeably, India has demonstrated its will to cross the self-imposed red lines. For a long time India had been held back by the belief, imposed on it by Pakistan, that any sort of military aggression will result in inevitable nuclear exchange. The 26th February strike of IAF disproved that belief and the concept of cultivated irrationality of Pakistan.
However in the higher echelons of the Pakistani establishment, a well planned and thoroughly war-gamed escalation ladder exists, which comprises of proportional tit-for-tat responses going up the ladder until an all-out nuclear exchange. Behind the veil of cultivated irrationality, there are sane(-ish) minds who believe in the possibility of deescalation at every step of the ladder. Regardless of what the gullible public has been led to believe on both sides of the border, a nuclear exchange will never be instant, and will give enough time for the international community to intervene (unless someone decides to execute a pre-emptive CF strike). It will always begin with mobilization of nukes, missile launch exercises, live 'demonstrations' for the international community, CF strikes on friendly territory, CF strikes on enemy territory...and lastly ending with CV strikes on enemy territory. If someone has listened a lot to retd. Lt. Gen. Kidwai (ex-DG SPD), the 'designer' of Pakistan's entire nuclear posture, he/she will know what I'm referring to.


Seems like I struck some nerves with my rhetorical questions. Gentlemen, learn to debate with rational arguments. I'm not sure if its the frustration (understandably so) post-Pulwama, or the hatred of Pakistan, or the absolute faith in the Indian Armed Forces...that is causing educated Indian members to ignore the evidence in the face and come up with absurd explanations to justify their claims. Our heroes fail us some times, given that its not a fair or an ideal world. Mine have certainly failed me a long time ago. The correct thing to do is analyze everything objectively, and accept your own mistakes, even if they make you extremely uncomfortable. Only then you'd be able to rectify them and make yourselves better.
I don't support terrorism in any form against anyone. Personally, I believe that a few elements of the Pakistani establishment want to keep the Kashmir issue alive, and this is their way of doing so. It is a flawed strategy, and expecting to establish peace with India at the same time is plainly stupid. But there are a lot more elements who want to have peace in the region, to save the sinking ship. Musharraf took years to realize the inevitability of peace...to no avail in the end. Pakistan was never as leaning towards peace as prior to Pulwama. There is a civilian government (selected, but still) and an Army that is on the same page after ages. Both want to resolve the conflict issues so that the focus can be economic development, but it seems that the mindset of 'strategic assets' still exists somewhere deep down. Regardless, reduction of elements causing terror will definitely be seen inside Pakistan in the coming days.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
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I understand very little of economics. If you could could explain how economies(Pakistani in particular) tank, that would be very helpful.
How old are you and what are your educational qualifications? I am asking this just to format my reply to your question in words and manner that you understand it.
 

Angel Eyes

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Dec 1, 2017
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Rare 'quality' you mean? ;)

I meant what I posted earlier ..... draw up a list of your queries, and post them. There is a reason I asked you to draw them up. And meanwhile, suggest read the whole thread at your leisure and what is unclear, clarify.

There is no dearth of patience here ... only impatience with trolling
Sir, i didn't even asked you to answer in first place, you shouldn't have bothered to reply, as a serving millatry official, your time is too precious to waste on such silly questions. IMO, you shouldn't be even on the internet forums wasting time on silly arguements, you should be on the border making strategies on how to defeat and dismember Pakistan....
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
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6,108
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New Delhi
Sir, i didn't even asked you to answer in first place, you shouldn't have bothered to reply, as a serving millatry official, your time is too precious to waste on such silly questions. IMO, you shouldn't be even on the internet forums wasting time on silly arguements, you should be on the border making strategies on how to defeat and dismember Pakistan....
He is a retired officer. Serving officers are not allowed to be on such forums.
 

BlackOpsIndia

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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Our heroes fail us some times, given that its not a fair or an ideal world. Mine have certainly failed me a long time ago.
Of course they do and they accept it in all humility, they tell us even about a small patrolling party beheading which is humiliating for a nation of this size but they do tell, they accept the losses and prepare for future.

However there is one particular army that lies to his own people continuously, again and again and even on tv, in tweets. They don't own the soldiers plenty of examples of that and don't disclose their losses even to own parliament.

I understand coming from such a country you are habitual of being lied to may look at our forces statements with scepticism but our forces have kept us informed through thick and thin. Our politicians may lie, that they do from time to time but not our forces, if you observed their statements they are extremely careful in claiming something.

For one full day they didn't claim f16 was shot down even after multiple confirmation, they took their time and only after ascertaining all facts do they claim the kill.

I know it's new to you, forces being honest and keep public apprised of even losses but you'll get used to it if you stay here.

Your all questions have been answered before, this reply and previous one. Stay here or visit periodically and whatever IAF and Indian foreign secretary have said will be corroborated. So far all of their comments are coming true and not a single one is proved wrong. ("Why IAF used bunker burster" is not evidence of missing the target).

A lot of replies maybe hostile to you (mostly because of our intolerance to propaganda) but we welcome you to stay and see for yourself.
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
2,284
2,507
Bangalore
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Can someone confirm authenticity

Mod edit: Not Authentic. There are lot of Wannabe experts... Let us not spread such fake news
 
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The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
140
122
Earth
Of course they do and they accept it in all humility, they tell us even about a small patrolling party beheading which I humiliating for a nation of this size but they do tell, they accept the losses and prepare for future.

However there is one particular army that lies to his own people continuously, again and again and even on tv, in tweets. They don't own the soldiers plenty of examples of that and don't disclose their losses even to own parliament.

I understand coming from such a country you are habitual of being lied to may look at our forces statements with scepticism but our forces have kept us informed through thick and thin. Our politicians may lie, that they do from time to time but not our forces, if you observed their statements they are extremely careful in claiming something.

For one full day they didn't claim f16 was shot down even after multiple confirmation, they took their time and only after ascertaining all facts do they claim the kill.

I know it's new to you, forces being honest and keep public apprised of even losses but you'll get used to it if you stay here.

Your all questions have been answered before, this reply and previous one. Stay here or visit periodically and whatever IAF and Indian foreign secretary have said will be corroborated. So far all of their comments are coming true and not a single one is proved wrong. ("Why IAF used bunker burster" is not evidence of missing the target).

A lot of replies maybe hostile to you (mostly because of our intolerance to propaganda) but we welcome you to stay and see for yourself.
Absolutely agreed to the misinformation part on the Pakistani armed forces, part of the reason I personally believe that an F-16B/D was indeed shot down. However as I said before, I'm going by irrefutable evidence here, regardless of the claims being made...just like one of your own professional member here.

Just to be clear, nobody is doing me any favors by 'allowing' me to stay here. I joined because I heard that unlike some other places, more mature people exist here. You're most welcome to dispel that belief, and I will certainly oblige, leaving people like you to answer questions like why don't we have more Pakistani members here.
 
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BlackOpsIndia

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_Anonymous_

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Absolutely agreed to the misinformation part on the Pakistani armed forces, part of the reason I personally believe that an F-16B/D was indeed shot down. However as I said before, I'm going by irrefutable evidence here, regardless of the claims being made...just like one of your own professional member here.

Just to be clear, nobody is doing me any favors by 'allowing' me to stay here. I joined because I heard that unlike some other places, more mature people exist here. You're most welcome to dispel that belief, and I will certainly oblige, leaving people like you to answer questions like why don't we have more Pakistani members here.
You're most welcome here. Don't mind @BlackOpsIndia much. He wears his heart on his sleeves at times as do most of us South Asians, most of the time.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
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New Delhi
About to graduate ME student with no idea about economics.
Ok. The economic stregth of a country is judged by various parameters but one of the major parameters is the value of its currency with respect to other countries. The value of currency has nothing to do with the size of the economy but more to do with the strength of the economic fundamentals in terms of how much you spend and how much you save. If for some reason, you are unable to repay your loans and become bankrupt. No one will give you anymore loans and all your dreams, plans and future will not be realised. In such a situation no one wud like to deal with you financially and you will be forced to sell your property etc to survive.
Pakistan has already pledged a large number of its national properties to China to meet its requirement of funds to survive. Now it still needs more money but the squeeze put by India and loss of revenue due to on going tensions plus extra expenditure to maintain armed forces in such state of preparedness will cause more losses to them.
Eventually a stage may be reached that it fails to meet its obligations and becomes bankrupt. Once a nation becomes bankrupt, its currency acquires the status of junk currency which no one wants to deal in. So even with billions of PKR in your hands, no one wants to deal in that currency. You will than be forced to buy an alternate currency at very high rates in black market. Effectively turning a billionaire into a pauper.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Banned
Dec 4, 2017
17,189
13,057
Mumbai
About to graduate ME student with no idea about economics.

BE ( Mech) here with an embarrassingly low knowledge and interest in economics. It's not known as a dismal science for nothing. Off late, I realised that my low knowledge quotient on this subject was too low for my own good. Got around to buying a few books to improve my knowledge. That was a year ago. I guess time to start reading them now. Here's one of those purchases.


A Beginner's Guide to the World Economy: Eighty-one Basic Economic Concepts That Will Change the Way You See the World (Vintage) https://www.amazon.in/dp/0375725792/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_0W8GCb93XG70C
 
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