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Bharath

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Dec 1, 2017
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That will be colossal waste of time considering the people impersonating as "logical" are repeating pure BS of ISPR with zero evidence.

Claim: Independent journlist verified presence of craters.
Fact: No journalist was allowed in madarasa, not even Pakistani, forget independent one, even after 10 days.

Claim: Target was missed no damage to structure.
Fact:


Claim: Loss of foliage nearby and bomb tail found.
Fact: Minor loss of foliage in a particular area, could be done later on, after planting few kg bomb tail to show bomb missed the targets. Interestingly no crater here by crater "experts". These pics by ISPR shows how badly they contradicted themselves in staging a scene.

Imp Notice no crater here where bomb was supposedly found and yet they claim crater 100mtr away without any photo or bomb remnants. So much for crater theory.


Claim: No F16 was used so no question of getting shot down.
Fact: Remnants of AMRAAM that can only be fired via f16 recovered busting theory of no f16 used.
Atleast 2-3 videos of POK locals shows 2 parachutes ejecting from a shot down jet. Only f16 can carry 2 pilots. Also multiple interviews to media by locals telling how they beat the second pilot mercilessly, also accepted by ISPR and Imran Khan later when found out own pilot slowly backtracked.

Note: Be wary of neutral experts having logical questions, after all they are same who denied 2016 strikes even after videos were released later on, so no amount of proof is going to change anything for them, the message is delivered very clearly to those intended rest is all face saving.
I was banking on the fact that they wont take up the challenge. many people on the forums are afraind to show their real life faces - shows they have something to hide.. or they are trolls.. after they turn down the offer.. i know what their intention is.. and many others are in that list now..
 

Bharath

Technical Staff
Dec 1, 2017
791
999
Boston
I humbly excuse from taking part in such a debate, for personal reasons. I believe that this platform is more than enough for the intended purpose. Thank you.
stop hyperboles then if you dont want to debate.. parotting ISPR's declarations as "substantiated claims" while Indian official stance is "unsubstantiated" only shows how deeply rooted your own biases and paranoia is. no amount of proof can show anything different. 9/11 inside job, 26/11 inside job. pulwama inside job, ui inside job, but APS is everyone in the world out to get pakistan because they are scared of your bomb.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,134
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And yeah I forgot the claim of friendly fire shot down of Mi17 helicopter, interestingly a missile was fired either from Srinagar or AAM from IAF aircraft to bring it down as per claim.

Every Indian aircraft is equipped with friend and foe identification system (and so are most airforce in world) to even think it was shot by friendly missile is absurd but wait you found a hole in tail time to bring some conspiracy theories forgetting completely that if a missile is going to hit the tail it will destroy it completely, you won't find "a hole" in tail.

Zaid Hamid should post from his own account instead of posing as a normal user. These conspiracy theories sell very well to Pakistani public and there they should remain, like that Israeli pilot.
The hole had the skin blown outwards. A missile hit will cause the skin to fold inwards. Most likely the hole was caused by some part separating from inside the tail and blowing outwards causing the accident. In addition, there would have also been splinter hits around the hole. There were no such splinter marks around that hole.
 

Hellfire

Hellfire
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Nov 30, 2017
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The hole had the skin blown outwards. A missile hit will cause the skin to fold inwards. Most likely the hole was caused by some part separating from inside the tail and blowing outwards causing the accident. In addition, there would have also been splinter hits around the hole. There were no such splinter marks around that hole.


Sir, as pointed out by you here and by me earlier, beveling of the hole is the key. Anyone who knows his/her forensics, will laugh at the claim of it being shot down by anything. Information of a technical snag having hit the aircraft was coming within a short span.

For the noobs, beveling or 'bending' at the point of impact, is inwards if the projectile is moving from out to in, denoting an entry point in direction of the bevels (or bend in layman terms). Clearly, the beveling is outwards in the picture, a component apparently must have come from something in the tail of the helicopter. Until and unless a new weapon has been discovered that can penetrate one wall without any effect and exit the other with tremendous one.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
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I was banking on the fact that they wont take up the challenge. many people on the forums are afraind to show their real life faces - shows they have something to hide.. or they are trolls.. after they turn down the offer.. i know what their intention is.. and many others are in that list now..


Interesting....

Look at the previous image from google earth...

1552120888429.png



See the regular patterns on the buildings? This is a 50 cm reso shot. Google uses WV-02/03 providing 50 CM shot. Compare this details with the crap that Planet Labs and by extension everyone else is paddling. Damage on the structure will be visible as daylight in that reso.

That Raj47 guy either has a low reso shot or a doctored one. That said if it is real, then yes, the damage looks real because the dar spots are not regular and elongated.

1552121122565.png
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,134
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New Delhi
The so called fuel air bursts in the open ground are moulds of freshly dug up earty and the colour differences shows it all. This is the place where all the dead bodies have been buried. That is the Kabrgaah of the terrorists who dies in the attack. In addition the points shown below by arrow were also hit and so also the tented accommodation around this base. The VIP guest house is on top left corner where the top leadership of JeM was sleeping.
1552121706373.png
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,580
Seattle
The so called fuel air bursts in the open ground are moulds of freshly dug up earty and the colour differences shows it all. This is the place where all the dead bodies have been buried.
So my thinking was correct. The deads were burried in that location. Possible, the survivors and injured too... After killing them of-course. It was a mop-up operation...

No wonder they don't want people to come too close.
 
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vstol Jockey

Professional
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6,134
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So my thinking was correct. The deads were burried in that location. Possible, the survivors and injured too... After killing them of-course. It was a mop-up operation...
Yes. They never took out the dead and severely injured. They killed even the severely injured and buried them within the compound along with the dead. have a good look at the place where fuel air explosive seems to have been used. You can make out that it is freshly dug earth heaped in a mould. Just the way we have on a grave.
 
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Shajida Khan

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Dec 27, 2017
1,514
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Yes. They never took out the dead and severely injured. They killed even the severely injured and buried them within the compound along with the dead. have a good look at the place where fuel air explosive seems to have been used. You can make out that it is freshly dug earth heaped in a mould. Just the way we have on a grave.
Well, I will let Google earth do a refresh of that location. After sometime if they put some structure to mark final resting place, then it is all but confirmed.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,134
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New Delhi
Well, I will let Google earth do a refresh of that location. After sometime if they put some structure to mark final resting place, then it is all but confirmed.
They are probably waiting for the dug out earth to become of same colour as the rest or heavy rains which will allow them to merge the graves with the compound. or use rollers on the graves to flatten them.
 
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Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
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Seattle
They are probably waiting for the dug out earth to become of same colour as the rest or heavy rains which will allow them to merge the graves with the compound. or use rollers on the graves to flatten them.
Too bad for them... Many sats have taken pictures of that place. I think at the right time, they will be made public by GoI or a media outlet. Or someone like Raj47 will get the data and make it public. I can track how many sats have passed there. WV02, GeoEye, PLR1A... They cann't hide it. The cloud cover was also less than optimal for them in past few days..
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,580
Seattle
Sir, as pointed out by you here and by me earlier, beveling of the hole is the key. Anyone who knows his/her forensics, will laugh at the claim of it being shot down by anything. Information of a technical snag having hit the aircraft was coming within a short span.

For the noobs, beveling or 'bending' at the point of impact, is inwards if the projectile is moving from out to in, denoting an entry point in direction of the bevels (or bend in layman terms). Clearly, the beveling is outwards in the picture, a component apparently must have come from something in the tail of the helicopter. Until and unless a new weapon has been discovered that can penetrate one wall without any effect and exit the other with tremendous one.
Well, anyone who has shot cans will know that.. How the entry hole looks and how the exit hole looks.
 
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Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
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1,580
Seattle
The so called fuel air bursts in the open ground are moulds of freshly dug up earty and the colour differences shows it all. This is the place where all the dead bodies have been buried. That is the Kabrgaah of the terrorists who dies in the attack. In addition the points shown below by arrow were also hit and so also the tented accommodation around this base. The VIP guest house is on top left corner where the top leadership of JeM was sleeping.
Kudos sir! You are absolutely right.
I checked with Google Earth Pro. Since 2005 or so, such kind of formations were never seen on that compound. They have images till June 2018. Land has been clear of any kind of such patches. Only shadows (dark blue/grey with clear boundaries) occasionally. Something was dug there.

Oh the roof also didn't have patches like that. There had been patterns of pieces of material being connected but not circular spots.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,134
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New Delhi
Kudos sir! You are absolutely right.
I checked with Google Earth Pro. Since 2005 or so, such kind of formations were never seen on that compound. They have images till June 2018. Land has been clear of any kind of such patches. Only shadows (dark blue/grey with clear boundaries) occasionally. Something was dug there.
They took out only people with minor injuries who could be treated. They buried the rest there only. Converted the compound into a graveyard. many people have stated that 300 active mobiles were active there and some could have had dual sims. But a mjority of these terrorists are from very poor families who can't afford two properly meals and are brain washed with the lure of money and Jihad to become terrorists. I am sure the number of terrorists and new recruits in that place would have easily been over 400-450. look at the number of graves and size of them. They look like huge mass graves. These so called warriors of faith were not even a given a proper burial forget about a proper grave.
 

Angel Eyes

Active member
Dec 1, 2017
199
117
Top of the world
Errr.
Kashmiri struggle is ongoing sonce 1947, thats 72 years not 30 years.
All they are asking for is a referrendum in which they can vote if they want to join India, or Pakistan or make a free country of their own.
Pakistan has supported this demand of theirs since 1947.
If India calls this terrorism, its their problem.

Yes, it is our problem and we will solve it ourselves, just wait for re-election of Modi, you will know why he is called Butcher of Gujrat, under the guidance of Modiji, we will wage Gazwa-e-Sindh upon you and restore democracy, order and peace in South Asia.
 

Angel Eyes

Active member
Dec 1, 2017
199
117
Top of the world
Gurus, is it possible that R-77 BVRAM, primary weapon of Sukhoi, is actually a dud rocket, that may explain the fact why we engaged Pak Air Flies in dogfight rather than beyond visual range combat....
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,580
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Gurus, is it possible that R-77 BVRAM, primary weapon of Sukhoi, is actually a dud rocket, that may explain the fact why we engaged Pak Air Flies in dogfight rather than beyond visual range combat....
Let me put it in this way. China used this missile's seeker to develop their pl-12 with the motor of their own. So it cann't be a dud. Also. motor/sustainer are much easier to get right than guidance....
 
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Guynextdoor

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
3,911
1,079
India
I can answer your first question.
GPS has 10 times as much error in Z axis as it has in X and Y axis.
The area being mountainous, had to have 3d accuracy. The bombs may have been accurate in X and Y axis but failed in altitude accuracy.
The spice does not depend upon end point GPS navigation alone. There are multiple other protocols that it has to follow. For one there is way point Navigation where on multiple locations during the flight path the spice continuously checks location speed heading and multiple other parameters. And then there is the final approach. Spice compares the target with images stored enough memory to compare and carry out the strike. And before all of this happens the onboard computer has to give it go ahead to release the bomb which it does only after making sure that the strike can be completed as required. Spice did not miss the target. It might be difficult to pick up on satellite pictures because the penetrative warhead does not damage the exterior of the structure so much. But once inside the building take the explosion kills off all soft skin targets. @deterrent the Spice did not fail.
 
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