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safriz

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Jan 1, 2018
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Like you care... Even those Pakistanis who pretend to care about that now; were likely celebrating Mumbai type attacks until you folks started getting a taste of what your country's been doing in ours for 30 years.
Errr.
Kashmiri struggle is ongoing sonce 1947, thats 72 years not 30 years.
All they are asking for is a referrendum in which they can vote if they want to join India, or Pakistan or make a free country of their own.
Pakistan has supported this demand of theirs since 1947.
If India calls this terrorism, its their problem.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
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Errr.
Kashmiri struggle is ongoing sonce 1947, thats 72 years not 30 years.
All they are asking for is a referrendum in which they can vote if they want to join India, or Pakistan or make a free country of their own.
Pakistan has supported this demand of theirs since 1947.
If India calls this terrorism, its their problem.
They should vote with their feet.
 

RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Banned
Dec 2, 2017
1,654
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USA
Errr.
Kashmiri struggle is ongoing sonce 1947, thats 72 years not 30 years.
All they are asking for is a referrendum in which they can vote if they want to join India, or Pakistan or make a free country of their own.
Pakistan has supported this demand of theirs since 1947.
If India calls this terrorism, its their problem.

Err...

Kashmiri Terrorism only seriously began in 1987 and accelerated during the '90s - thanks to Pakistan - which used a nuclear umbrella to avoid any blowback to its activities.

And the referendum matter is dead for good. The referendum died when Pakistan failed to pull back its troops, engaged in targeted, illegal demographic change, and illegally ceded a part of PoJK to China.

You should conduct an Independence referendum in Balochistan and one in KPK about joining Afghanistan.
 

The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
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Either way, damage seems precise and pretty extensive as higher resolution images emerge.

View attachment 4849
So now tree shadows count as "precise and extensive" damage?


I am waiting for GoI or someone in media to make that expense. I have a quote of about $2000-3000 from two satellite constellations: WorldView 02 and Pleiades : both having better resolution than one used by Planet Labs. It is 27th Feb one to boot.
Don't you find it interesting that even the funded nationalist TV channels (e.g. Republic), which earn loads probably, can't seem to spend a teeny tiny amount on the said satellite imagery to prove their point? Why are they sticking to the PlanetLabs imagery and trying to find holes in it? What happened to the famed ISRO imagery satellites, why can't they seem to be utilized here?

I have a second thought. It might have happened that Pakistan army might have killed and buried any survivors with dead inside the buildings only. Saves the siren for ambulance and keeps things hidden you know..
And I thought only my countrymen were unique (reference: Israeli pilot). Seems like we do share more than just the color of our skins.

Those were apparently IEDs tested by JeM trainees. Spice does not create the kind of damage shown by those craters.
Interesting theory. So apparently JeM trainees timed their IED-blasts perfectly well with the IAF strikes? Because an old man sustained light injuries because of the window shards the blasts generated outside the target site.
Where did Rafael say that SPICE-2000 does not cause that kind of damage? I have seen extensive footage from Rafael of SPICE guided munitions in use which depict otherwise. Besides, we have evidence of SPICE-2000 wing(let)s debris in the craters.

It was all part of the same engagement. The 'hot pursuit' as it is called was simply because the Mig-21 continued giving chase.
If you say so. :)

@Falcon had already addressed that. There are no tell tale signs of it being shot down.
Alright, didn't know that a punched hole in the tail is not a tell tale sign. I wonder what else could have caused it then. Explanations are welcome.

At the time of the attack, the entire region was covered by clouds, so no optical satellite imagery exists. Anything that claims to be one is plain wrong. This has already been discussed on the forum, brought to our attention by @Shajida Khan.
I don't think anyone (except the fanboys) expects/expected video feed from a satellite of the strike. All people asked for were simple before/after images. I read reports that IAF had SAR imagery of the area. ISRO also has SAR satellite(s) in the orbit. So kindly don't say that imagery doesn't exists.

And, as explained by the IAF already, all the Spice 2000 does is make a hole on the roof and then explode inside the building, but there won't be visible damage to the structure from the outside with the exception of a hole on the roof. It was followed by with Pokhran imagery of targets destroyed by Spice.
IAF didn't explain ANYTHING. They didn't even claim employment of SPICE kits. It has just been the media with their sources, however it was verified because of the debris found in the crater(s).

I believe this is the image in question for the "hole" theory:
Screenshot_2019-03-08-09-11-37-601_com.android.chrome.jpg


If you believe that this "Classified Google Earth Image" (whatever that means) represents that a ~5x5m target was DESTROYED by a 2000lbs LIVE munition equipped with a SPICE-2000 SOW kit...then I'm afraid I have nothing more to say, except refer you to youtube for blast videos of Mk 84 or even BLU-109 bombs. Until then, maybe this classified stuff will help you feel more at ease.

Now considering the extensive cloud cover and minimal damage, logic says the PA managed to fix those holes relatively quickly and satellites were unable to confirm that.
Logic has been quite unusually in favor of Pakistan lately, hasn't it? I wonder which logic would explain a ~30x30m structure hit with 4x SPICE-2000 SOWs (with a combined 8000lbs of total ordinance, of which 2000-4000lbs was explosive, depending on if it was general-purpose or penetrating)...and still remaining intact, with no signs of visible damage, besides some "holes" a retd. Col. found.

The real clincher is the fact that PA has still not allowed media to access a mere madrassa. Normally, if there was no damage, the media would have been allowed right in on day 1 of the strikes to prove that no damage was done. Even photographs of undamaged structures would have been released by ISPR. None exist.
Let me guess. PA officially denies the very existence of JeM, yet it will allow foreign media inside a JeM run Madrassa...because proving India wrong is more important than saving its own face, right?

Consider this: Nothing we try to prove or disprove on the internet changes the things that have happened on the ground. Even if the strike failed, India has shown willingness to attack another N-power on its soil without any hesitation, which means this can be repeated time and time again and hence has set a precedent. Even if an F-16 was not shot down or PAF hasn't lost a pilot, India has demonstrated the capability to prevent PAF action on Indian soil, whereas the Indian strike proved India can strike Pakistan at will even when PAF was on high alert. So this is the worst case for India.

Now let's consider the worst case for Pakistan. PAF failed at stopping the IAF's attack even after being on high alert for 12 days. The strikes were highly successful and eliminated 200-300 terrorists. A reactionary attack by PAF was thwarted and an F-16 and one of its pilots was lost, in exchange for an old aircraft and the return of a hale and hearty Indian pilot. A flurry of BVR attacks from PAF's best aircraft and none from IAF with no tangible losses on the Indian side has established a massive mismatch in capability between the two forces. And if you consider proof of all this happened is available, for example, the release of radar imagery of the strikes, and radar analysis of the air combat from AWACS, like the one the Russians released after the IL-20 incident, one can imagine what would happen to the reputation of the Pak military domestically and internationally after having constantly lied every day.

There is such a huge mismatch between India's worst case and Pakistan's worst case. The PR advantage is currently on Pakistan's side. But the actual ground situation is in India's favour no matter how you look at it.
As I said, I'm not here to measure stuff. India indeed demonstrated its will to cross its self-imposed red lines. Pakistan also demonstrated its will to not sit back, even if there were no damages. As far as I'm concerned, both countries underestimated each others' responses.

@the_deterrent
@safriz

Not sure if you guys are trolling - but I want to really believe that you are here for a rational debate. In that case, I request you both - we can get on a skype/zoom session on video and discuss the Indian and Pakistan View. I can organize the session and we can discuss the topic for 30-45 min.

@randomradio
@Falcon
I volunteer to be on the debate and we can really discuss this rationally
I humbly excuse from taking part in such a debate, for personal reasons. I believe that this platform is more than enough for the intended purpose. Thank you.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
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I don't think anyone (except the fanboys) expects/expected video feed from a satellite of the strike. All people asked for were simple before/after images. I read reports that IAF had SAR imagery of the area. ISRO also has SAR satellite(s) in the orbit. So kindly don't say that imagery doesn't exists.

The only public domain imagery (that I know of) that exists is Planet Labs. It has two issues :

1. It is 72cm resolution. though its high, even google earth has best pictures at 50 cm.
2. It has only images from 4th of March or so.

I also have few images (not zoomed in/high-res) of the place from 24th April 2k18 and 27th Feb 2019. There is an inkling of dark spots in the pictures. These are from two satellites groups Pleiades and WV02. The reason I am not putting these up is because they were sent to me with quotations and are copyrighted and likely water-marked to my order no. These were sort of preview of larger pictures that I can get if I pay. But then those 'marks' can be just artifacts unless I verify them by zooming into those with high-res real pictures.
 
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Shajida Khan

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IAF didn't explain ANYTHING. They didn't even claim employment of SPICE kits. It has just been the media with their sources, however it was verified because of the debris found in the crater(s).

I believe this is the image in question for the "hole" theory:
I have a question. Where does "2000" comes from?
India's goal was to minimize civilian causality, if you take that at face value. India might have employed spice 250s (Israel to field lightweight Spice 250 bombs). Is there a confirmed case for spice 2000? 2000 pounds of high explosive is a bit too much against loosely guarded and un-shielded camps.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Interesting theory. So apparently JeM trainees timed their IED-blasts perfectly well with the IAF strikes? Because an old man sustained light injuries because of the window shards the blasts generated outside the target site.

It's not necessary the IEDs were used during the strikes. It can be old tests also.

Where did Rafael say that SPICE-2000 does not cause that kind of damage? I have seen extensive footage from Rafael of SPICE guided munitions in use which depict otherwise. Besides, we have evidence of SPICE-2000 wing(let)s debris in the craters.

How long would it take to pick up Spice debris from the actual target and plant it under trees?

Alright, didn't know that a punched hole in the tail is not a tell tale sign. I wonder what else could have caused it then. Explanations are welcome.

Could be any number of reasons. Let's see what the CoI reveals.

I don't think anyone (except the fanboys) expects/expected video feed from a satellite of the strike. All people asked for were simple before/after images. I read reports that IAF had SAR imagery of the area. ISRO also has SAR satellite(s) in the orbit. So kindly don't say that imagery doesn't exists.

I pointed out in two places that SAR imagery taken by the IAF/ISRO exists. Whether it will be revealed is a different story because we have no actual reason to reveal resolution of images. As I said earlier, the world doesn't need to know the actual story, only the govts knowing the truth is enough.

If you believe that this "Classified Google Earth Image" (whatever that means) represents that a ~5x5m target was DESTROYED by a 2000lbs LIVE munition equipped with a SPICE-2000 SOW kit...then I'm afraid I have nothing more to say, except refer you to youtube for blast videos of Mk 84 or even BLU-109 bombs. Until then, maybe this classified stuff will help you feel more at ease.

The type of warhead matters.

Logic has been quite unusually in favor of Pakistan lately, hasn't it? I wonder which logic would explain a ~30x30m structure hit with 4x SPICE-2000 SOWs (with a combined 8000lbs of total ordinance, of which 2000-4000lbs was explosive, depending on if it was general-purpose or penetrating)...and still remaining intact, with no signs of visible damage, besides some "holes" a retd. Col. found.

As already told in the media, the explosives used were meant to do soft tissue damage and not blow up the structure.

Let me guess. PA officially denies the very existence of JeM, yet it will allow foreign media inside a JeM run Madrassa...because proving India wrong is more important than saving its own face, right?

Then just 'official' pics of the rooftops will do. Nothing really secret about that, right? It's all visible from sat imagery anyway. Although it's too late for that now.
 

ghostwhowalks

Active member
Dec 4, 2017
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Who will cause such a catastrophy? we the people of India.
exactly, and given the stellar track record of our countrymen, I wouldn't put it past their eternal wisdom to bring this catastrophe upon all of us. After all, even today tandoori chicken, a quarter of rum and 100 bucks is fair game for one vote. But I digress....
 

Golden_Rule

Boundless Seeker
Dec 6, 2017
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Gazwa-e-hind, anyone? I don't remember Modi when said anything. He didn't even make a press conference regarding it. So if Modi keeps "threatening war" as you allege, will Pakistan indefinitely shutdown their airspace ?

Now it will be Gazwa-e-Pakistan :)
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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@the_deterrent
@safriz

Not sure if you guys are trolling - but I want to really believe that you are here for a rational debate. In that case, I request you both - we can get on a skype/zoom session on video and discuss the Indian and Pakistan View. I can organize the session and we can discuss the topic for 30-45 min.

@randomradio
@Falcon
I volunteer to be on the debate and we can really discuss this rationally

Unrealistic, bro. Nobody wants to lose their anonymity on the internet.
 

Golden_Rule

Boundless Seeker
Dec 6, 2017
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As already told in the media, the explosives used were meant to do soft tissue damage and not blow up the structure.

That is really smart move from India to keep the structure with minimum damage so that the next set of living soft tissues can arrive there asap for India to continue sending them to their 72 hoories
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,337
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Mumbai
Well you may call all terrorism in Pakistan freedom movement. We do not expect any good from you and that's the norm now.
The current episode has shown Pakistani youth India's true face and minds have changed. That in itself a great victory for Pakistan
We survive on your validation. Where would we be without it?
 

nair

nair
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Nov 30, 2017
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Well yeah, that is a possibility.
But fact remains your spice bombs despite all the hoopla, fell on empty mountain, killing a crow and some trees.
Has anyone seen the building or the terror factory up and close? Last time I checked ISPR and PA feel that the weather on mountain top is not good that too for past 10 days... but in the valley it's fine......

Your answer is in this......

Has anyone dared to ask PA or ISPR the right questions????. You will get lot of answers..... ( Either by picked up and dumped in the nala or a threat from you know... where)I Strongly recommend you not to ask
 

mayawi

Member
May 20, 2018
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India
Errr.
Kashmiri struggle is ongoing sonce 1947, thats 72 years not 30 years.
All they are asking for is a referrendum in which they can vote if they want to join India, or Pakistan or make a free country of their own.
Pakistan has supported this demand of theirs since 1947.
If India calls this terrorism, its their problem.


I hats funny why don't you hold referendum in Pakistan occupied Kashmir . What stops you to do right thing after all from your side. Meanwhile you can talk same thing about Balochistan. I hope Pakistan see the pain of its own people before worrying about others
 
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BlackOpsIndia

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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@the_deterrent
@safriz

Not sure if you guys are trolling - but I want to really believe that you are here for a rational debate. In that case, I request you both - we can get on a skype/zoom session on video and discuss the Indian and Pakistan View. I can organize the session and we can discuss the topic for 30-45 min.

@randomradio
@Falcon
I volunteer to be on the debate and we can really discuss this rationally

That will be colossal waste of time considering the people impersonating as "logical" are repeating pure BS of ISPR with zero evidence.

Claim: Independent journlist verified presence of craters.
Fact: No journalist was allowed in madarasa, not even Pakistani, forget independent one, even after 10 days.

Claim: Target was missed no damage to structure.
Fact:


Claim: Loss of foliage nearby and bomb tail found.
Fact: Minor loss of foliage in a particular area, could be done later on, after planting few kg bomb tail to show bomb missed the targets. Interestingly no crater here by crater "experts". These pics by ISPR shows how badly they contradicted themselves in staging a scene.

Imp Notice no crater here where bomb was supposedly found and yet they claim crater 100mtr away without any photo or bomb remnants. So much for crater theory.


Claim: No F16 was used so no question of getting shot down.
Fact: Remnants of AMRAAM that can only be fired via f16 recovered busting theory of no f16 used.
Atleast 2-3 videos of POK locals shows 2 parachutes ejecting from a shot down jet. Only f16 can carry 2 pilots. Also multiple interviews to media by locals telling how they beat the second pilot mercilessly, also accepted by ISPR and Imran Khan later when found out own pilot slowly backtracked.

Note: Be wary of neutral experts having logical questions, after all they are same who denied 2016 strikes even after videos were released later on, so no amount of proof is going to change anything for them, the message is delivered very clearly to those intended rest is all face saving.
 

BlackOpsIndia

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Dec 1, 2017
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And yeah I forgot the claim of friendly fire shot down of Mi17 helicopter, interestingly a missile was fired either from Srinagar or AAM from IAF aircraft to bring it down as per claim.

Every Indian aircraft is equipped with friend and foe identification system (and so are most airforce in world) to even think it was shot by friendly missile is absurd but wait you found a hole in tail time to bring some conspiracy theories forgetting completely that if a missile is going to hit the tail it will destroy it completely, you won't find "a hole" in tail.

Zaid Hamid should post from his own account instead of posing as a normal user. These conspiracy theories sell very well to Pakistani public and there they should remain, like that Israeli pilot.
 
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