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Star Wars

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https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...n-on-terror/story-ue911EOZfOMqmoUAWjenGN.html

The United States and India have separately called upon Pakistan to ensure its post-Pulwama crackdown on terrorists was “sustained, irreversible” and not “cosmetic” as in the past when apprehended individuals and shut down facilities returned to normal when the glare of global scrutiny shifted away.

“The United States notes these steps,” said Robert Palladino, the US state department spokesperson Thursday, about the ongoing crackdown in Pakistan, “and we continue to urge Pakistan to take sustained, irreversible action against terrorist groups that will prevent future attacks and that will promote regional stability.”

He added: “And we reiterate our call for Pakistan to abide by its United Nations Security Council obligations to deny terrorists safe haven and block their entry to funds”

Separately, an Indian official told reporters at a background briefing Pakistan has staged such crackdowns — “professed actions” — before. Referring to Pakistan’s actions after the Mumbai 2008 attack, the official said most of the apprehensions either took place only on “paper” or those taken into custody were kept at “VIP guesthouses” and in “luxurious accommodations”. It was as if, the government was telling them “you are our people, but you need to lie low for the time being”.

“Whether thee actions are cosmetic or credible is yet to be seen,” the official said of the current actions, adding that India would be looking for “credible and verifiable actions”.

Hafiz Saeed, the founder and leader of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeY) and the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks that claimed 166 lives, for instance, who was arrested and released in 2017, had been kept under “house arrest”. at home.

Pakistan has said it has arrested 121 individuals — not calling them terrorists — and seized control of over 400 facilities and assets owned or run by proscribed organizations, including Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), which claimed responsibility for the Pulwama attack, LeT and their fronts.

Those arrested so far include JeM head Masood Azhar’s brother Abdul Rauf Asghar and son Hammad Azhar.

But not Azhar himself, who the Pakistani government has claimed is ailing, “so much so he cannot leave his house”.

A move is afoot at the UN security council to designate him a terrorist, which Pakistan has resisted for years, with China, its “all-weather friend”, blocking three previous attempts. A decision is likely on March 13 to a proposal moved jointly by France, the United States and the United Kingdom.

As India seeks to mount pressure on Pakistan to give up the use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy, it is also “moving towards” urging the world community to consider declaring Pakistan a state-sponsor of terrorism, the Indian official said. The United States, for instance, has Iran, North Korea, Syria and Sudan on its list of countries it has designated as state-sponsors of terrorism.

It nearly added Pakistan to that list in the 1990s. It has also been a recurring demand of many American lawmakers, from both parties, who have been frustrated by the “duplicity” demonstrated by a one-time ally in its actions to combat terrorism.

But India has itself hesitated to brand Pakistan as one arguing such a designation will come in the way of normalization of ties. It would be forced to break ties with Pakistan, which would “become an enemy state”.
 

Nilgiri

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
593
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I have to disagree here, IF Pakistanis had accepted the fate of their F-16's and its pilots. We would not have lost the perception war, no matter what they tried to peddle in the media. The Death of their pilots would have equated everything. No amount of drama would have changed it.

The Difference here is that India is not willing to forget its pilots and its heroes. While Pakistan is willing to bury its own heroes to get a one up on Propaganda. I would prefer loosing a 1000PR battles over such crude behaviour on their own people.

Give it some time. They admitted to it being NLI in Kargil only after the hiding they got was over (and NLI families no longer were able to tolerate the cover up).

Right now things are still quite hot.

But you are right maybe 1 pilot is not enough pressure compared to hundreds of NLI.

Evidence might slip out regardless with time though. When you invest in lies and coverup (Esp something this big as F-16 + pilot), generally its a matter of time.

I agree with your post....Truth and trust matters much more than PR battle. We have a history to uphold as well....not revisionist emotions.
 

The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
140
122
Earth
Some questions for the Indian community, from my personal perspective, on the whole episode:

1. Why did the IAF's 4x SPICE-2000 equipped 2000lbs bombs miss their target(s) at Balakot by 100-200m?
A. Is it possible that, despite the SPICE being an autonomous battle-tested SOW kit with a 3m CEP, harsh weather played its role? If yes, does it raise doubts on the effectiveness of SPICE? Consequently, did IAF unknowingly give GoI an inaccurate bomb damage assessment, trusting the weapon system? Did Mirage-2000s not have the DSMAC feed of the SPICE seekers?
B. Or was this an intentional, shot-across-the-bow, meant to send a message to Pakistan? If yes, why did GoI claim a large number of terrorists being eliminated? Did GoI unnecessarily politicize the strike, hoping to kill two birds with one stone? Did GoI underestimate the national and international questioning of the validity of its claims?


2. Why was the retaliatory PAF strike package not intercepted inside Indian territory?
A. Did the IAF not have enough CAP units in the region, given the threat of imminent retaliation? Were they merely out of range?
B. Or did PAF employ multiple divisive intrusion tactics in the same region, leading to IAF CAPs being distracted and outnumbered?


3. Why did Wing Commander Abhinandan went alone after PAF fighters in hot pursuit, given the proximity of LoC?
A. Did he violate RoEs and ignore the instructions given by his controllers to not proceed? If yes, does this raise doubts on the discipline of IAF pilots, or is this a one-off case? Did Wing Commander Abhinandan fall into a well-designed bait?
B. If he didn't, why didn't his wingman follow his suit? Why did the Su-30MKIs/Mirage-2000s fail to provide cover to the aircraft(s) going in hot pursuit?


4. Why didn't the IAF Su-30MKIs engage/retaliate when PAF F-16s/JF-17s launched BVRs towards them?
A. Is this a simple case of the priority to execute evasive maneuvers/jamming?
B. Or did the Su-30MKIs not have a valid firing solution, given the RoEs and the rapid egression of PAF fighters?

5. Why did the IAF Mi-17 went down in the same time frame as the dogfight over LoC?
A. Was it a mere coincidence that despite Mi-17 being a robust aircraft, it suffered a catastrophic crash, and not even a crash landing?
B. Or if the photos of a punched hole in the tail of the Mi-17 are authentic, is it possible that it was a case of fratricide? If yes, was it shot down by a SAM from the Srinagar AFS or by an AAM from an IAF aircraft?


6. Why didn't the Indian Military respond/retaliate to the PAF strike, given it struck in close proximity of IA's military installations?
A. Did GoI and the Indian Military call it a day and declared scores being settled, since no damage was done to IA's military installations?
B. Or did the Indian Military prepare to escalate with a retaliatory Air/Missile strike? If yes, why was it called off? Did the Indian public's emotions regarding the shot down pilot play a role? Did the International Community alone prevent India from doing so? Or did Pakistan's probable mobilization of nuclear weapons played its role?


7. Why did the Indian Submarine surface close to the Pakistani coast?
A. Was this on purpose, to demonstrate a show-of-force? If yes, is exposing a submarine's signature to a maritime surveillance aircraft worth it?
B. If not, was it unavoidable snorkeling, since the submarine was already on a course away (SW) from the Pakistani coast?

Note:
Intentionally skipping questions about the twin-seat aircraft that allegedly went down over the LoC, since claims remain unsubstantiated and so far discussions on it have been driven by emotions rather than rationale. My personal hunch is still with a F-16B/D as the most probable candidate. Similarly claims of Su-30MKI/Mirage-2000 remain unsubstantiated.

@Falcon , your effort to stay impartial and objective regarding facts on the ground is much appreciated. I hope you keep your strength up to dispel rumors, false bravado and war-mongering. These questions are not directed towards you, since you've already answered most of them. However feel welcome to elaborate on anything. The larger purpose of this post is to combine all my answered/unanswered questions into one post, as food for thought, for everyone.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,781
628
UK, Pakistan
Some questions for the Indian community, from my personal perspective, on the whole episode:

1. Why did the IAF's 4x SPICE-2000 equipped 2000lbs bombs miss their target(s) at Balakot by 100-200m?
A. Is it possible that, despite the SPICE being an autonomous battle-tested SOW kit with a 3m CEP, harsh weather played its role? If yes, does it raise doubts on the effectiveness of SPICE? Consequently, did IAF unknowingly give GoI an inaccurate bomb damage assessment, trusting the weapon system? Did Mirage-2000s not have the DSMAC feed of the SPICE seekers?
B. Or was this an intentional, shot-across-the-bow, meant to send a message to Pakistan? If yes, why did GoI claim a large number of terrorists being eliminated? Did GoI unnecessarily politicize the strike, hoping to kill two birds with one stone? Did GoI underestimate the national and international questioning of the validity of its claims?


2. Why was the retaliatory PAF strike package not intercepted inside Indian territory?
A. Did the IAF not have enough CAP units in the region, given the threat of imminent retaliation? Were they merely out of range?
B. Or did PAF employ multiple divisive intrusion tactics in the same region, leading to IAF CAPs being distracted and outnumbered?


3. Why did Wing Commander Abhinandan went alone after PAF fighters in hot pursuit, given the proximity of LoC?
A. Did he violate RoEs and ignore the instructions given by his controllers to not proceed? If yes, does this raise doubts on the discipline of IAF pilots, or is this a one-off case? Did Wing Commander Abhinandan fall into a well-designed bait?
B. If he didn't, why didn't his wingman follow his suit? Why did the Su-30MKIs/Mirage-2000s fail to provide cover to the aircraft(s) going in hot pursuit?


4. Why didn't the IAF Su-30MKIs engage/retaliate when PAF F-16s/JF-17s launched BVRs towards them?
A. Is this a simple case of the priority to execute evasive maneuvers/jamming?
B. Or did the Su-30MKIs not have a valid firing solution, given the RoEs and the rapid egression of PAF fighters?

5. Why did the IAF Mi-17 went down in the same time frame as the dogfight over LoC?
A. Was it a mere coincidence that despite Mi-17 being a robust aircraft, it suffered a catastrophic crash, and not even a crash landing?
B. Or if the photos of a punched hole in the tail of the Mi-17 are authentic, is it possible that it was a case of fratricide? If yes, was it shot down by a SAM from the Srinagar AFS or by an AAM from an IAF aircraft?


6. Why didn't the Indian Military respond/retaliate to the PAF strike, given it struck in close proximity of IA's military installations?
A. Did GoI and the Indian Military call it a day and declared scores being settled, since no damage was done to IA's military installations?
B. Or did the Indian Military prepare to escalate with a retaliatory Air/Missile strike? If yes, why was it called off? Did the Indian public's emotions regarding the shot down pilot play a role? Did the International Community alone prevent India from doing so? Or did Pakistan's probable mobilization of nuclear weapons played its role?


7. Why did the Indian Submarine surface close to the Pakistani coast?
A. Was this on purpose, to demonstrate a show-of-force? If yes, is exposing a submarine's signature to a maritime surveillance aircraft worth it?
B. If not, was it unavoidable snorkeling, since the submarine was already on a course away (SW) from the Pakistani coast?

Note:
Intentionally skipping questions about the twin-seat aircraft that allegedly went down over the LoC, since claims remain unsubstantiated and so far discussions on it have been driven by emotions rather than rationale. My personal hunch is still with a F-16B/D as the most probable candidate. Similarly claims of Su-30MKI/Mirage-2000 remain unsubstantiated.

@Falcon , your effort to stay impartial and objective regarding facts on the ground is much appreciated. I hope you keep your strength up to dispel rumors, false bravado and war-mongering. These questions are not directed towards you, since you've already answered most of them. However feel welcome to elaborate on anything. The larger purpose of this post is to combine all my answered/unanswered questions into one post, as food for thought, for everyone.
I can answer your first question.
GPS has 10 times as much error in Z axis as it has in X and Y axis.
The area being mountainous, had to have 3d accuracy. The bombs may have been accurate in X and Y axis but failed in altitude accuracy.
 

The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
140
122
Earth
I can answer your first question.
GPS has 10 times as much error in Z axis as it has in X and Y axis.
The area being mountainous, had to have 3d accuracy. The bombs may have been accurate in X and Y axis but failed in altitude accuracy.
I'm pretty sure that Rafael knows more about this issue than anybody else. Besides, weapons like JDAMs and SPICE employ military-grade GNSS augmentation, if not the military high-accuracy signal. Then there's the additional DSMAC seeker available in SPICE, which can be manually overridden by the WSO.
 
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safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,781
628
UK, Pakistan
I'm pretty sure that Rafael knows more about this issue than anybody else. Besides, weapons like JDAMs and SPICE employ military-grade GNSS augmentation, if not the military high-accuracy signal. Then there's the additional DSMAC seeker available in SPICE, which can be manually overridden by the WSO.
However GPS legally is not a liability on USA as legally still declared experimental not operational.
So they are not bound to provide same accuracy to anyone except their own forces.
The GPS signal accuracy always deteriorates in war zones. Speaking from experience.
GNSS augmentation applies Kalman equations and rejects signals deemed inaccurate. However those calculations are based on taking an average between various signals and if more than one satellite positioning systems are injection error in their signal then even that method will be in accurate.
The manual override you are on about needs radio signal reception which needs line of sight communication with the weapon system, again a problem in mountainous terrain.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,046
9,179
India
Kabaddi ka match hai kya? Maaro and get inside your line and you are safe?

They can launch AMRAAM from their space, but MKI cant do the same from our airspace?

They tried to attack our military HQ as well, but we didn't do anything back to them.

So it's obvious we wanted to keep Indian military on Pak military engagement to a minimum. It was more suitable for us politically if WC Abhi had not shot down an F-16.
 

Bharath

Technical Staff
Dec 1, 2017
791
996
Boston
Please allow me to answer this,

1. Why did the IAF's 4x SPICE-2000 equipped 2000lbs bombs miss their target(s) at Balakot by 100-200m?
A. Is it possible that, despite the SPICE being an autonomous battle-tested SOW kit with a 3m CEP, harsh weather played its role? If yes, does it raise doubts on the effectiveness of SPICE? Consequently, did IAF unknowingly give GoI an inaccurate bomb damage assessment, trusting the weapon system? Did Mirage-2000s not have the DSMAC feed of the SPICE seekers?
B. Or was this an intentional, shot-across-the-bow, meant to send a message to Pakistan? If yes, why did GoI claim a large number of terrorists being eliminated? Did GoI unnecessarily politicize the strike, hoping to kill two birds with one stone? Did GoI underestimate the national and international questioning of the validity of its claims?
We do not have any official record from anywhere stating that the bombs missed the target. the only official records from the Indian side was "The bombs hit the intended target". I am not sure where you got the news of "the bombs missed their target". If its from ISPR - then we are yet to see which side is saying the truth on this - you havent let many journalists to the madrasa on balakot, so I beleive that shows who is telling the truth.


2. Why was the retaliatory PAF strike package not intercepted inside Indian territory?
A. Did the IAF not have enough CAP units in the region, given the threat of imminent retaliation? Were they merely out of range?
B. Or did PAF employ multiple divisive intrusion tactics in the same region, leading to IAF CAPs being distracted and outnumbered?
If they were not intercepted, there would not be a hot pursuit of the offending aircraft. Unlike some other country's airforce, we even targeted the offending aircraft with WVR missiles.

3. Why did Wing Commander Abhinandan went alone after PAF fighters in hot pursuit, given the proximity of LoC?
A. Did he violate RoEs and ignore the instructions given by his controllers to not proceed? If yes, does this raise doubts on the discipline of IAF pilots, or is this a one-off case? Did Wing Commander Abhinandan fall into a well-designed bait?
B. If he didn't, why didn't his wingman follow his suit? Why did the Su-30MKIs/Mirage-2000s fail to provide cover to the aircraft(s) going in hot pursuit?
There is no official communication on any RoEs - so violating them or staying within them is only a speculation at the moment. The offical word is, he pursued an f-16 and shot it. My take: he went alone after the PAF fighters because no one is afraid of PAF fighters.

4. Why didn't the IAF Su-30MKIs engage/retaliate when PAF F-16s/JF-17s launched BVRs towards them?
A. Is this a simple case of the priority to execute evasive maneuvers/jamming?
B. Or did the Su-30MKIs not have a valid firing solution, given the RoEs and the rapid egression of PAF fighters?

using BVRs would mean hitting PAF fighters inside Pakistan - which would occur when a war has been declared. and please note - the CAPs of IAF got close enough to target PAF with WVR - something the PAF can learn from (for the first instance when IAF entered Pak Air space)

5. Why did the IAF Mi-17 went down in the same time frame as the dogfight over LoC?
A. Was it a mere coincidence that despite Mi-17 being a robust aircraft, it suffered a catastrophic crash, and not even a crash landing?
B. Or if the photos of a punched hole in the tail of the Mi-17 are authentic, is it possible that it was a case of fratricide? If yes, was it shot down by a SAM from the Srinagar AFS or by an AAM from an IAF aircraft?
A lot more things happened the same time the or the same day - to say all of them are connected without any proof is called a conspiracy theory.

6. Why didn't the Indian Military respond/retaliate to the PAF strike, given it struck in close proximity of IA's military installations?
A. Did GoI and the Indian Military call it a day and declared scores being settled, since no damage was done to IA's military installations?
B. Or did the Indian Military prepare to escalate with a retaliatory Air/Missile strike? If yes, why was it called off? Did the Indian public's emotions regarding the shot down pilot play a role? Did the International Community alone prevent India from doing so? Or did Pakistan's probable mobilization of nuclear weapons played its role?

India and Pakistan are not at war, India's aim was to repel any aggression and the offending aircraft was hit as per official communication. as per Indian military retaliating - if it wasnt, we wont have so much of activity along the LoC


7. Why did the Indian Submarine surface close to the Pakistani coast?
A. Was this on purpose, to demonstrate a show-of-force? If yes, is exposing a submarine's signature to a maritime surveillance aircraft worth it?
B. If not, was it unavoidable snorkeling, since the submarine was already on a course away (SW) from the Pakistani coast?

The official communication from India clearly states that Pakistan is clearly misinformed on the submarine.


Note:
Intentionally skipping questions about the twin-seat aircraft that allegedly went down over the LoC, since claims remain unsubstantiated and so far discussions on it have been driven by emotions rather than rationale. My personal hunch is still with a F-16B/D as the most probable candidate. Similarly claims of Su-30MKI/Mirage-2000 remain unsubstantiated.

If you did not want to discuss unsubstantiated claims, then you wouldnt have any of these questions. because all of the above are "unsubstantiated" claims. which means you are trolling in this post.
 

Bharath

Technical Staff
Dec 1, 2017
791
996
Boston
I can answer your first question.
GPS has 10 times as much error in Z axis as it has in X and Y axis.
The area being mountainous, had to have 3d accuracy. The bombs may have been accurate in X and Y axis but failed in altitude accuracy.

The GPS signal accuracy always deteriorates in war zones. Speaking from experience.

see - the GPS that people get on loan or subsidy is different from the GPS that people get when they pay for it fully.
Also, the end user agreements depends on the "End user". so dont compare to different end users and what they get.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,781
628
UK, Pakistan
see - the GPS that people get on loan or subsidy is different from the GPS that people get when they pay for it fully.
Also, the end user agreements depends on the "End user". so dont compare to different end users and what they get.
Well yeah, that is a possibility.
But fact remains your spice bombs despite all the hoopla, fell on empty mountain, killing a crow and some trees.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,046
9,179
India
Some questions for the Indian community, from my personal perspective, on the whole episode:

My opinions below.

1. Why did the IAF's 4x SPICE-2000 equipped 2000lbs bombs miss their target(s) at Balakot by 100-200m?
A. Is it possible that, despite the SPICE being an autonomous battle-tested SOW kit with a 3m CEP, harsh weather played its role? If yes, does it raise doubts on the effectiveness of SPICE? Consequently, did IAF unknowingly give GoI an inaccurate bomb damage assessment, trusting the weapon system? Did Mirage-2000s not have the DSMAC feed of the SPICE seekers?
B. Or was this an intentional, shot-across-the-bow, meant to send a message to Pakistan? If yes, why did GoI claim a large number of terrorists being eliminated? Did GoI unnecessarily politicize the strike, hoping to kill two birds with one stone? Did GoI underestimate the national and international questioning of the validity of its claims?

The bombs did not miss.

2. Why was the retaliatory PAF strike package not intercepted inside Indian territory?
A. Did the IAF not have enough CAP units in the region, given the threat of imminent retaliation? Were they merely out of range?
B. Or did PAF employ multiple divisive intrusion tactics in the same region, leading to IAF CAPs being distracted and outnumbered?

The strike package was intercepted. That's why the PAF strike failed.

3. Why did Wing Commander Abhinandan went alone after PAF fighters in hot pursuit, given the proximity of LoC?
A. Did he violate RoEs and ignore the instructions given by his controllers to not proceed? If yes, does this raise doubts on the discipline of IAF pilots, or is this a one-off case? Did Wing Commander Abhinandan fall into a well-designed bait?
B. If he didn't, why didn't his wingman follow his suit? Why did the Su-30MKIs/Mirage-2000s fail to provide cover to the aircraft(s) going in hot pursuit?

He shouldn't have given chase. His mistake.

4. Why didn't the IAF Su-30MKIs engage/retaliate when PAF F-16s/JF-17s launched BVRs towards them?
A. Is this a simple case of the priority to execute evasive maneuvers/jamming?
B. Or did the Su-30MKIs not have a valid firing solution, given the RoEs and the rapid egression of PAF fighters?

I suppose the RoE did not allow engagement across the LoC. I suppose the MKIs were running away to increase the distance after missiles were fired, which is a valid tactical manoeuvre.

The PAF had gained the initiative when the Mig-21 crossed the LoC. So they can always claim firing in self defence had the MKIs fired back.

5. Why did the IAF Mi-17 went down in the same time frame as the dogfight over LoC?
A. Was it a mere coincidence that despite Mi-17 being a robust aircraft, it suffered a catastrophic crash, and not even a crash landing?
B. Or if the photos of a punched hole in the tail of the Mi-17 are authentic, is it possible that it was a case of fratricide? If yes, was it shot down by a SAM from the Srinagar AFS or by an AAM from an IAF aircraft?

Coincidence. Was not downed by friendly or enemy fire. It was too far away from action anyway.

6. Why didn't the Indian Military respond/retaliate to the PAF strike, given it struck in close proximity of IA's military installations?
A. Did GoI and the Indian Military call it a day and declared scores being settled, since no damage was done to IA's military installations?
B. Or did the Indian Military prepare to escalate with a retaliatory Air/Missile strike? If yes, why was it called off? Did the Indian public's emotions regarding the shot down pilot play a role? Did the International Community alone prevent India from doing so? Or did Pakistan's probable mobilization of nuclear weapons played its role?

I suppose the WC's capture dulled our response. Plus Pak started making the 'right' noise in the international community, putting pressure on India to give Pakistan time to take action on terrorism emanating from its soil. And this is fine for now.

7. Why did the Indian Submarine surface close to the Pakistani coast?
A. Was this on purpose, to demonstrate a show-of-force? If yes, is exposing a submarine's signature to a maritime surveillance aircraft worth it?
B. If not, was it unavoidable snorkeling, since the submarine was already on a course away (SW) from the Pakistani coast?

IN has already said this didn't happen.
 

The Deterrent

Active member
Mar 11, 2018
140
122
Earth
However GPS legally is not a liability on USA as legally still declared experimental not operational.
So they are not bound to provide same accuracy to anyone except their own forces.
The GPS signal accuracy always deteriorates in war zones. Speaking from experience.
GNSS augmentation applies Kalman equations and rejects signals deemed inaccurate. However those calculations are based on taking an average between various signals and if more than one satellite positioning systems are injection error in their signal then even that method will be in accurate.
The manual override you are on about needs radio signal reception which needs line of sight communication with the weapon system, again a problem in mountainous terrain.
Of course, US is not bound to provide any support in this regard,
Except that this wasn't a warzone. I know that even the DoP can cause massive error, but still, this isn't expected from a Rafael-designed, proven weapon.
Correct on the LoS-loss in the Kashmir region. Primary reason why I believe IAF couldn't provide accurate BDA in the aftermath, but thats just conjecture.

We do not have any official record from anywhere stating that the bombs missed the target. the only official records from the Indian side was "The bombs hit the intended target". I am not sure where you got the news of "the bombs missed their target". If its from ISPR - then we are yet to see which side is saying the truth on this - you havent let many journalists to the madrasa on balakot, so I beleive that shows who is telling the truth.
We have witnesses and independent journalists verifying the presence of 4x craters between 100-200m away from the alleged JeM camp. We also have photos of the said crater(s) with SPICE-2000 wing debris. Besides that we have independent satellite imagery verifying loss of green foliage at the locations of the craters. The only potential target nearby was the JeM-run madrassa, all structures of which are still standing post-strike, also verified by independent satellite imagery. Unless the intention was to send a message, the bombs missed their target(s).

If they were not intercepted, there would not be a hot pursuit of the offending aircraft. Unlike some other country's airforce, we even targeted the offending aircraft with WVR missiles.
A hot pursuit by definition is done after failure to intercept the said aircraft within friendly territory. Hence the question.

There is no official communication on any RoEs - so violating them or staying within them is only a speculation at the moment. The offical word is, he pursued an f-16 and shot it. My take: he went alone after the PAF fighters because no one is afraid of PAF fighters.
True, there has been no official confirmation on RoE violation, and understandably so. Its a question that has risen in many minds, given the solo act of Wing Commander Abhinandan. "No fear" is a short-sighted dangerous emotion and clouds judgement, as apparent by the diplomatic aftermath of the MiG-21 crash.

using BVRs would mean hitting PAF fighters inside Pakistan - which would occur when a war has been declared. and please note - the CAPs of IAF got close enough to target PAF with WVR - something the PAF can learn from (for the first instance when IAF entered Pak Air space)
That is exactly what I meant by RoEs.
My objective here is not to prove that anyone's thing is bigger here. I believe both Air Forces can learn a lot from each other.

A lot more things happened the same time the or the same day - to say all of them are connected without any proof is called a conspiracy theory.
They sure did - except that not many involved a military transport helicopter that ended up with a punched hole in its tail. With all due respect for the departed souls, may they rest in peace.

India and Pakistan are not at war, India's aim was to repel any aggression and the offending aircraft was hit as per official communication. as per Indian military retaliating - if it wasnt, we wont have so much of activity along the LoC
Is 155mm artillery shelling an enough, measured or appropriate escalatory response?

The official communication from India clearly states that Pakistan is clearly misinformed on the submarine.
Unfortunately Pakistan claims otherwise, and has imagery to prove it. You're welcome to deny the authenticity of imagery, but it is there.

If you did not want to discuss unsubstantiated claims, then you wouldnt have any of these questions. because all of the above are "unsubstantiated" claims. which means you are trolling in this post.
My questions are based on substantiated evidence available on the ground in the form of imagery. Most of them have also been asked by neutral, international third parties. If they make you feel uncomfortable, I'm afraid there's not much I can do.

@randomradio I believe most of this post answers you as well.
 

TARGET

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
578
465
One thing for sure hereafter we are not going to spend alone on the weapons and also financial crisis of our neighbors is not going to over soon. we might have learned few things from this but hope quality BVRAAM will available to us after September ,let’s hope modi comeback again and we will see test of meteor missile. It's time to go back to the drawing board and do some analysis.
 
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