HAL Indian Multirole Helicopter (IMRH) : Updates & Discussions

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore




 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
13,542
9,599
Mumbai

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,021
2,593
United States

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore
The DAC approval for NMRH will come around the time the contract for 24 is signed.

HAL's IMRH is more than a decade away from a naval variant.
One year for AoN two for RFP and two more for evaluation. By then multiple N-IMRH would be flying. Cancel wait for the full certification like spike, htt-40 etc. Official timeline is 7-8 years. IN version is separate and it would go in parallel. IAF/IA doesn't have an urgent requirement like IN so it could be a priority.

Any casual observerer would understand the pattern by now. Expecting IN to order all helis as import is very unrealistic.
The IA/IAF version is the priority. The IN won't touch a first time medium helicopter maker, even HAL. HAL will have to prove the IA/IAF version works first.
Thats just my guess because of the requirement. let's see. I'm bookmarking it.

I did not expect to be vindicated this fast ;)

Land version is a derivative of the naval variant.

Screenshot_2020-02-28 Kiran Raghuram on Twitter realkaypius HALHQBLR That's the only mockup av...png



As usual, your assessments are far from reality.

@Ankit Kumar @Milspec @Parthu
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
I did not expect to be vindicated this fast ;)

Land version is a derivative of the naval variant.


As usual, your assessments are far from reality.

@Ankit Kumar @Milspec @Parthu

It's not in parallel as you stated, the naval version's development will be taken up after IAF/IA version, which has already begun and which is the correct process.

Also, you said: IAF/IA doesn't have an urgent requirement like IN so it could be a priority.

IN's requirement is of higher priority so they will be importing 123 helicopters through a tender after the 24 Romeos come in, separate from HAL's helicopter. So the IN, in their own unique and clever way, while supporting an indigenous development project, like they did with LCA, are also importing their actual needs without a fuss.

With LCA, after experimenting with it, they killed it saying it's single engine, like they never knew it was one, and are now asking for the TEDBF, which will take 10-15 years to deliver the first jet, and in the meantime they want the MRCBF import running in parallel of the same generation. Once TEDBF is half way done, you can expect the IN to say that due to the massive Chinese threat, their requirements are now much higher and need a more advanced jet than the TEDBF, giving preference to jets like the FCAS or the American F/A-XX. The first major DRDO project to be cancelled was also the navy's Trishul SAM, replaced by the Barak-1 and later Barak-8 "import" projects as well. IN has always been the "best importer" among all three services. They get what they want. After all, it doesn't cost a lot to latch on to an existing program that's already paid for by the other two unwitting services.

You can expect the IN to "buy" a "large number" of HAL's helicopters only after the 123 foreign helicopters + options are exercised first anyway. So how many years do you want to give for that? At least it will give the HAL time to mature their own naval tech. I recall you once said IN will not be going for 123 helicopters.

Although honestly, I'd much rather see an FMS deal for all 123 signed with Sikorsky. Even tranche purchases are fine.

Oh, give it some time, by the time IN's INMRH Mk1 is ready, you will see the IN asking for next gen helicopters with twice the speed and altitude, like the Boeing Defiant or Sikorsky Raider (google those names). So you can expect an INMRH Mk2 or even an INMRH Mk3 to be the actual helicopter that will be introduced.

Btw, that Twitter link is broken.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India

There's literally nothing in that which suggests the navy version will be made in parallel.

It's a very general one-sided statement saying HAL will provide the navy its helicopters. Meaning, HAL has merely assumed the navy's medium helicopter requirement will be fulfilled by them. Do note the words "proposed". I can also make such a proposal. Sikorsky can also propose to provide helicopters to all three services, so can the Russians. Looks like another ORCA. :ROFLMAO:

Merely an attempt by HAL to curtail the private industry's attempt to enter the aerospace sector, so a red herring. Definitely another ORCA.

Dunno why you got so excited over just a PR statement from HAL. Relevant information can only come from MoD. As far as HAL is concerned, future Rafales will also be made in HAL, alongside LCA, MWF, AMCA, TEDBF, ORCA and even FGFA.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore
There's literally nothing in that which suggests the navy version will be made in parallel.

It's a very general one-sided statement saying HAL will provide the navy its helicopters. Meaning, HAL has merely assumed the navy's medium helicopter requirement will be fulfilled by them. Do note the words "proposed". I can also make such a proposal. Sikorsky can also propose to provide helicopters to all three services, so can the Russians. Looks like another ORCA. :ROFLMAO:

Merely an attempt by HAL to curtail the private industry's attempt to enter the aerospace sector, so a red herring. Definitely another ORCA.

Dunno why you got so excited over just a PR statement from HAL. Relevant information can only come from MoD. As far as HAL is concerned, future Rafales will also be made in HAL, alongside LCA, MWF, AMCA, TEDBF, ORCA and even FGFA.
Yeah, everything is at the 'proposed' stage after gathering requirements even AMCA. Funny to see how you are skipping the original point :LOL:. I was not talking about PR statement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Milspec

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
Yeah, everything is at the 'proposed' stage after gathering requirements even AMCA. Funny to see how you are skipping the original point :LOL:. I was not talking about PR statement.

The entire premise is based on a PR statement from a company, not MoD. You can read the text yourself.

AMCA came from ADA, which is under DRDO, and ASR was released long ago by IAF. Dunno why you brought that up because IMRH and AMCA are not the same. IMRH is yet to enter ASR/PSQR stage, but HAL has already started the PDC for IA/IAF version since they know what the redlines are because of the Mi-17.

This is just common sense, but land version and naval version are entirely different helicopters. Especially when it comes to medium and heavy helicopters. An entirely new helicopter design is needed for naval use. Even the materials they are built from have to be different. Not to mention, this new helicopter will now have to match or surpass the Romeo, which is not an easy task for a first timer.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore
The entire premise is based on a PR statement from a company, not MoD. You can read the text yourself.

AMCA came from ADA, which is under DRDO, and ASR was released long ago by IAF. Dunno why you brought that up because IMRH and AMCA are not the same. IMRH is yet to enter ASR/PSQR stage, but HAL has already started the PDC for IA/IAF version since they know what the redlines are because of the Mi-17.

This is just common sense, but land version and naval version are entirely different helicopters. Especially when it comes to medium and heavy helicopters. An entirely new helicopter design is needed for naval use. Even the materials they are built from have to be different. Not to mention, this new helicopter will now have to match or surpass the Romeo, which is not an easy task for a first timer.
Again I'm not talking about PR. But reply by RWR&DC manager.

The airforce/army variant would be a derivative of the naval variant.

Which is, of course, common sense which you skip at times. Like ordering more PC-7 or here importing 123 NMRH.

HAL is 90% MoD company. They call all the shots. Just like ADA they need DAC approval to get full long term funding. They got both ASR and NSQR and now entering the detailed design stage (Did AMCA get full approval?).

Navy wants a purpose build helicopter for them just like TEDBF. But according to you IN will only accept proven land-based design.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
Again I'm not talking about PR. But reply by RWR&DC manager.

I know what you are referring to. It's literally PR. No different from what Vivek Lal is doing for American products he represents.

Even Saab's CEO was saying Saab will become an Indian company if Gripens are made in India. All PR.

HAL is 90% MoD company. They call all the shots.

Lol. It's not exactly what you think.

MoD asks Indian Navy to reconsider HAL's exclusion from $3 B chopper programme

Forces decide many things.

HAL can do whatever they want with their own stuff. If they want to make a naval variant and peddle it to the IA and IAF, it's their prerogative as long as it fulfills IA/IAF's requirements also. But there is nothing in it to suggest the navy's actually involved in the project. As of right now, only IA and IAF are the IMRH's customer and only the land version is under PDC.

That's why PR says: Oh, yeah, we have considered the navy's requirement since the beginning...

That's a completely superfluous statement. It literally doesn't mean anything to the navy.

Navy wants a purpose build helicopter for them just like TEDBF. But according to you IN will only accept proven land-based design.

No. Navy will accept any design that meets their requirements. What I said is it will be difficult for a first timer like HAL to actually succeed on their first attempt, so it's unlikely for the IN to bite for any independent design from HAL from the beginning itself.

What HAL is aiming for is the same as what they have planned with ORCA. They simply want the IN to hand over the NMRH requirement to HAL without any contest. No testing, no validation, no certification, simply literally hand it over, and then HAL will take its own sweet time to design a naval helicopter and deliver whenever it gets ready.

The navy isn't foolish enough to fall for such tactics, especially when HAL has failed to develop a proper naval helicopter over the last 2 decades.

Good luck if you fail to understand what HAL is doing.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore
Ok we have improvement here.

The IA/IAF version is the priority. The IN won't touch a first time medium helicopter maker, even HAL. HAL will have to prove the IA/IAF version works first.
to
No. Navy will accept any design that meets their requirements

Your tenacity to dance around the point is admirable.

Oh yeah. It's not about PR it's about which direction the project is evolving. Everything else you said comes only after the product is ready. So meh.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: Vicky and Milspec

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
Ok we have improvement here.

to


Your tenacity to dance around the point is admirable.

Oh yeah. It's not about PR it's about which direction the project is evolving. Everything else you said comes only after the product is ready. So meh.

There was no dancing around anything.

IN will accept any design that meets their requirement, which means INMRH will have to be flying and then compete in the tender, because that tender is definitely going through. IN is not simply going to hand over the contract to HAL that has zero experience in designing naval helicopters.

I don't get why this discussion is so hard for you to understand.

Let me make it even more simple.

IMRH for IA and IAF will go through, that will become their project. Unless of course, problems come up during development, then the forces will ask for a tender. So IMRH's IA/IAF version is their top priority.

Navy's NMRH is an entirely separate project, which has nothing to do with IMRH. HAL can hope navy will select their IMRH naval variant for the NMRH, but that's irrelevant to the navy, because the navy doesn't exist in order to give orders to HAL. Navy's induction of medium helicopters is of higher priority to the navy than waiting for HAL to develop a naval variant, which is of lower priority for the IA/IAF. But if HAL magically comes up with a naval IMRH in time, then the navy will most definitely consider it. Do you get where I'm going at least now? I don't think I can dumb it down any further than this.

I'll try making it even simpler--
IA/IAF are willing to wait for a development project since they do not have a crippling priority. They can hand over the project to HAL since indigenisation is the priority here, and no one else makes helicopters in India anyway. Not to mention, HAL has been successful with land based helicopters. So HAL's prioity is to deliver the land version first, since they already have this in the bag.

IN cannot wait. They need as much as 250 medium lift helicopters in total. So the GTG for 24 will be followed by a tender for 123+ options. Indigenisation is not a priority. If HAL can develop and certify a naval variant before NMRH evaluations begin, then it stands a chance. My personal opinion, they won't get one ready until at least 5-10 years later. No chance, so HAL is gonna have to prove me wrong here, which I doubt they will.

In even more simpler manner--
IA/IAF version has no competition. IN version has to compete with Romeo, Caracal etc. So guess what the navy's gonna choose.

You being vindicated is only if the navy says they will cancel NMRH in exchange for INMRH. My position is all 123 helicopters will be imported, either through the tender or through GTG/FMS. You wanna prove me wrong, or vice versa, you have to wait for the navy's decision, not HAL's PR statement, no matter what they claim.

And they say I'm the one being optimistic. :rolleyes: