Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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Ej-200 and f-136 both are kade by RR. They just have active engines for which they can take idea from. NGF needs to target at least 180 KN to compete with planes like j-20,su-57 and f-22. If it doesn't surpass them then it's just another fifth gen plane.
Rafale is powered by 75Kn engine and compete without complex with EF2000, Su35, SH18 with more powerfull engines. So a nice 6th gen fighter may well be powered by a 130Kn engine... (I don't know what are the spec of the SCAF and you not more).

EF2000 is "only" a 90KN engine. Safran already made a 90KN version of M88... M88-3 for the never ordered "Super" Rafale for UAE in 2011.

F136 was not made by RR. It was partially made by RR (40% RR and 60% GE) and probably, as always, the hot core was US and the cold part by GB (or France in the CFM case for exemple). SO not a good exemple.
 
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Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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The Rafale is still on the list of, 'underfunded, could have been a good aircraft'. The next gen is going to be even more expensive,
Rafale is only behind the typhoon realistically when it comes to performance parameters that matter. The superhornet is a fat ugly school bus in comparison.
 

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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'underfunded, could have been a good aircraft'.
???
Rafale is only behind the typhoon realistically when it comes to performance parameters that matter. The superhornet is a fat ugly school bus in comparison.
Rafale > EF2000 in low and med altitude at all speed.
EF2000 is only superior in high alt and high mach.
I agree about SH18 : heavy with a not impressive load capacity.
 

Amarante

Well-Known member
Jun 22, 2021
595
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La Défense, France
(opex360 (fr), nov.26)

In the Senate, an amendment to the draft 2023 budget envisages a French "alternative" to the SCAF


Bis Repetita! For the second time in a week, an agreement between Dassault Aviation and Airbus on the New Generation Fighter [NGF], i.e. the first pillar of the Future Air Combat System [SCAF], has been prematurely announced.​
As a reminder, Dassault Aviation, which has been appointed prime contractor, is negotiating firmly with Airbus' German and Spanish subsidiaries on the distribution of the workload for phase 1B of this programme. However, since its status as the "best athlete" is being contested by Airbus Defence & Space in certain areas [notably that of flight controls], the French manufacturer does not intend to give anything up. This includes issues relating to its intellectual property.​
This tug of war has now lasted for nearly two years... And some are getting impatient, to the point of going faster than the music, as did the German government on 18 November, which welcomed an industrial agreement... that did not exist. It was a "pseudo political announcement that was made", squeaked Éric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, on RTL radio three days later.​
Then, during a trip to Berlin on 25 November, the Prime Minister, Elisabeth Borne, in turn, reported an agreement between the two industrialists concerned... while she was holding a press conference alongside Olaf Scholz, the German Chancellor. A Dassault Aviation spokesman, contacted by Reuters, replied that "it had not been done".
In any case, as long as this agreement is not signed, phase 1B of the SCAF, whose financing was only given lip service by the Bundestag in June 2021, cannot be launched... No doubt it will end up being launched... The sixtieth anniversary of the Franco-German Élysée Treaty could be the occasion to mark the occasion, with a lot of communication. However, if each next stage of this programme is to give rise to such complicated negotiations, the NGF will not take off any time soon... All the more so as it will remain at the mercy of the German MPs, who are quick to criticise the "French stranglehold" on this project.​

--------​
That said, some French parliamentarians are beginning to be annoyed by the German attitude in this matter. In the National Assembly, some went so far as to mention a "plan B" in the event of the failure of this cooperation with Germany [without forgetting Spain]. Plan B, which Eric Trappier regularly mentions...​
But the Senate obviously intends to go much further. Indeed, as part of the examination of the 2023 Finance Bill [PLF], its Finance Committee adopted an amendment submitted by Dominique de Legge, proposing to finance studies "intended to establish the conditions for the feasibility of a new-generation fighter project financed by France without any cooperation".
For this purpose, the text proposes to open up 10 million euros in commitment and payment credits for programme 144 "Defence Environment and Prospects". But as Senator Cédric Perrin explained during the work of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee, this amendment aims to remind the government that it must "give guarantees on the preservation of a certain number of France's strategic interests". He insisted: "The needs of our armies must be taken into account - deterrence and navalization - as well as the protection of intellectual property. Export rules must be clarified".
More specifically, noting the delay already accumulated by the SCAF and the difficulties in reaching agreement between the three countries involved in the programme, the amendment considered it necessary to explore the feasibility of a national "plan B" "in order to anticipate a possible impasse in the negotiations", but without calling into question "plan A" in the immediate future. And all this while arguing that "every day of additional delay in the negotiations is a day lost for the preparation of the French armies for the air war of the future".​
Furthermore, with regard to negotiations with Germany and Spain, the amendment insists that France "must remain firm on certain essential points of national interest, such as the ability to provide equipment and weapons systems that meet the degree of autonomy in action" that it wants. Or "maintaining an industry that is independent of foreign regulations, particularly in terms of export controls, over the long term". /deepl

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,516
11,308
India
(opex360 (fr), nov.26)

In the Senate, an amendment to the draft 2023 budget envisages a French "alternative" to the SCAF


Bis Repetita! For the second time in a week, an agreement between Dassault Aviation and Airbus on the New Generation Fighter [NGF], i.e. the first pillar of the Future Air Combat System [SCAF], has been prematurely announced.​
As a reminder, Dassault Aviation, which has been appointed prime contractor, is negotiating firmly with Airbus' German and Spanish subsidiaries on the distribution of the workload for phase 1B of this programme. However, since its status as the "best athlete" is being contested by Airbus Defence & Space in certain areas [notably that of flight controls], the French manufacturer does not intend to give anything up. This includes issues relating to its intellectual property.​
This tug of war has now lasted for nearly two years... And some are getting impatient, to the point of going faster than the music, as did the German government on 18 November, which welcomed an industrial agreement... that did not exist. It was a "pseudo political announcement that was made", squeaked Éric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, on RTL radio three days later.​
Then, during a trip to Berlin on 25 November, the Prime Minister, Elisabeth Borne, in turn, reported an agreement between the two industrialists concerned... while she was holding a press conference alongside Olaf Scholz, the German Chancellor. A Dassault Aviation spokesman, contacted by Reuters, replied that "it had not been done".
In any case, as long as this agreement is not signed, phase 1B of the SCAF, whose financing was only given lip service by the Bundestag in June 2021, cannot be launched... No doubt it will end up being launched... The sixtieth anniversary of the Franco-German Élysée Treaty could be the occasion to mark the occasion, with a lot of communication. However, if each next stage of this programme is to give rise to such complicated negotiations, the NGF will not take off any time soon... All the more so as it will remain at the mercy of the German MPs, who are quick to criticise the "French stranglehold" on this project.​

--------​
That said, some French parliamentarians are beginning to be annoyed by the German attitude in this matter. In the National Assembly, some went so far as to mention a "plan B" in the event of the failure of this cooperation with Germany [without forgetting Spain]. Plan B, which Eric Trappier regularly mentions...​
But the Senate obviously intends to go much further. Indeed, as part of the examination of the 2023 Finance Bill [PLF], its Finance Committee adopted an amendment submitted by Dominique de Legge, proposing to finance studies "intended to establish the conditions for the feasibility of a new-generation fighter project financed by France without any cooperation".
For this purpose, the text proposes to open up 10 million euros in commitment and payment credits for programme 144 "Defence Environment and Prospects". But as Senator Cédric Perrin explained during the work of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee, this amendment aims to remind the government that it must "give guarantees on the preservation of a certain number of France's strategic interests". He insisted: "The needs of our armies must be taken into account - deterrence and navalization - as well as the protection of intellectual property. Export rules must be clarified".
More specifically, noting the delay already accumulated by the SCAF and the difficulties in reaching agreement between the three countries involved in the programme, the amendment considered it necessary to explore the feasibility of a national "plan B" "in order to anticipate a possible impasse in the negotiations", but without calling into question "plan A" in the immediate future. And all this while arguing that "every day of additional delay in the negotiations is a day lost for the preparation of the French armies for the air war of the future".​
Furthermore, with regard to negotiations with Germany and Spain, the amendment insists that France "must remain firm on certain essential points of national interest, such as the ability to provide equipment and weapons systems that meet the degree of autonomy in action" that it wants. Or "maintaining an industry that is independent of foreign regulations, particularly in terms of export controls, over the long term". /deepl

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

This whole thing is actually entertaining.
 
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BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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France and Germany working together:

1669545607019.png
 

A Person

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Dec 1, 2017
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Franks are ancient German People ... so cooperating could be not so strange
It's got nothing about ethnicity (the French do not define themselves by ethnicity anyway, contrarily to the Germans) but about cultural values. And there's nothing in common between the political culture of France and the political culture of Germany.

France is obsessed with independence; Germany is obsessed with hegemony. France wants functioning and affordable materiel; Germany wants subsidies for its uncompetitive industries. France thinks ambitious projects must be conducted with a long-term vision; Germany thinks ambitious project must be redefined every three months by politicians.
 
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