Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

Tatvamasi

Senior member
Jan 5, 2018
1,170
1,199
India
if you think stealthy looks are just for marketing than why F22 was designed that way which was never meant to be exported. 5th gen is not just about looks but it also includes 5th gen systems like computing power, sensors, networking, EW etc.
Read, comprehend then replay. I never said stealthy looks are marketing.

As you correctly pointed out, Other than LO shape Rafale and EF are also fifth gen fighters. Which was my argument.
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
65
16
India
France is not going to share with us SCAF level of engine tech :LOL:. Its just a 10% increase in the performance of GE4014 with the same physical dimensions. latest iteration of the GE404 family is at least 15 years old. Which is good enough for us.

If you want a generational jump we have to invest in ourselves for decades.

AMCA is yet to get CCS clearance. So don't sweat on timeless and compare it with others.
Fair if france doesnt want to share its their loss too, RR is also an option for us, its. Indigenous R&D on jet tech will continue in parallel. And its not a problem talking about future techs, future military programs of our country and rest of world.
Read, comprehend then replay. I never said stealthy looks are marketing.

As you correctly pointed out, Other than LO shape Rafale and EF are also fifth gen fighters. Which was my argument.
I also request you to comprehend me correctly. I said that besides VLO airframe all the those systems in US 5th gen are also more advanced than both Rafale & EF.
 

Tatvamasi

Senior member
Jan 5, 2018
1,170
1,199
India
Fair if france doesnt want to share its their loss too, RR is also an option for us
Again, that's delusional. NO one will share such tech.

I also request you to comprehend me correctly. I said that besides VLO airframe all the those systems in US 5th gen are also more advanced than both Rafale & EF.
Where did i dispute that? Now go back to the original argument.
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
65
16
India
Delusion at its peak.
Kindly go thru the history how jet engine tech reached most of the countries making jet engines. Its not that everyone making jet engines today invented it. Also the nuclear weapons & missile tech.
Then explain yourself.
already explained Rafale & EF are not advanced enough by virtue of passive stealth as well as subsystems to be 5th gen in any sense. They are just 4.5+ gen.
 

Tatvamasi

Senior member
Jan 5, 2018
1,170
1,199
India
Kindly go thru the history how jet engine tech reached most of the countries making jet engines. Its not that everyone making jet engines today invented it. Also the nuclear weapons & missile tech.
This is a facepalm moment !. We are not talking about inventing jet engine but getting a contemporary cutting-edge version of it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,449
4,045
73
France
Le standard F5 du Rafale « devrait être en préparation à partir de 2023 », selon le Délégué général pour l’armement

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

The F5 standard of the Rafale "should be in preparation from 2023", according to the Délégué général pour l'armement

BY LAURENT LAGNEAU - 28 MAY 2022

While German MPs have finally voted the necessary credits for its continuation [with some reservations, however] and France, Germany and Spain have signed, in August 2021, the "application arrangement n°3" [IA3] concerning its phase 1B, The SCAF [Future Air Combat System] programme is still subject to an agreement to be concluded between Dassault Aviation and the German and Spanish subsidiaries of Airbus for the development of the 6th generation fighter aircraft on which it will be based. This is the first pillar of the project, which has five pillars (aircraft, engine, combat cloud, remote effectors and sensors).

As a reminder, Dassault Aviation intends to keep the levers that will allow it to exercise the prime contractorship that has been entrusted to it... and therefore to have a hand in the flight controls [in which it is a recognised specialist], the functional architecture, stealth and the man-machine interface. Except that Airbus, which will be responsible for two thirds of the NGF's production, does not see it that way. Hence this long-standing stalemate.

Last March, the CEO of the French manufacturer, Eric Trappier, did not hide his annoyance at Airbus' demands. "Somehow I think that we have made enough effort so that now we can go ahead. [I only accept to be a leader if I have the levers to do so. If it's to do co-co, since there are three of us now, I won't do it because it would be a lie to our armed forces to be able to do something in co-development without a leader and to guarantee them a performance, a timeframe and a cost", he said during the presentation of Dassault Aviation's results for the year 2021.

And he insisted: "With France leading the contract, Dassault Aviation is ready to sign. We have done everything necessary to be able to sign with Airbus. I am waiting for Airbus to sign. [...] In 2022, we will have to make a decision, we can't just sit back and say yes or no.

With phase 1A of the SCAF due to end in the first quarter of this year, Dassault Aviation has redirected its engineers to other activities, due to the lack of progress in the discussions with Airbus.

Nearly three months later, the file has not advanced one iota. During a hearing in the Senate at the beginning of May, the Délégué général pour l'armement, Joël Barre, indicated that the situation was "still blocked because of differences of opinion between Airbus and Dassault".

"On this point, I defend the following position: there is an agreement between the two manufacturers concerning phase 1B - which was to be started in 2021 and which we can hope to start by the end of 2022 if we manage to conclude the discussions - covering the period 2022-2025. Airbus has to sign the contract that Dassault has offered," Barre said.

Furthermore, he added, "France, Germany and Spain must for their part stress that a process for committing to the continuation of the programme has been provided for in their cooperation agreement signed on 30 August 2021". He therefore proposed that "the three states should draw up a declaration of intent stating that they welcome the signing of the Phase 1B contracts, and that they will apply the provisions for the transition from Phase 1B to the follow-on programme that are laid down in the cooperation agreement". The DGA said that he had "made a proposal to [his] counterparts in this sense" and was "waiting for their return in the coming days". And since then, nothing has moved...

Moreover, the meeting between Mr Barre and his German counterpart on 10 May apparently yielded nothing... Nor did President Macron's meeting with Chancellor Scholz the day before.

"I agree [...] that we must be firm with the German side on the commitments that have already been made - in particular the industrial organisation with clear responsibility per pillar. We need a prime contractor and an architect for the aircraft. The best in the field must be designated in this case, i.e. Dassault France and not Airbus Germany. Finally, the balance between the two countries must be assessed in the light of all the cooperative programmes," Mr Barre said.

But what will happen if this blockage persists, as Senator Christian Cambon asked the DGA? "I want to believe in our ability to find a solution with our German and Spanish industrial and state partners", he replied, before reminding us that "in any case, [...] we are continuing to develop the Rafale, in particular the F5 standard planned for 2035".

While the F4 standard of the Rafale is being developed, Mr Barre told the senators that the F5 standard "should be in preparation from 2023".

In any case, the idea of a possible failure of the SCAF is gaining ground... In February, deputies Jean-Louis Thiériot and Patricia Mirallès mentioned it in their report on high-intensity engagement, considering that this programme was becoming "more and more hypothetical", which has since been reinforced by Germany's decision to order F-35A aircraft from the United States.

Before them, their colleague Christophe Lejeune had refrained from going further, stressing only that the probable delays in the SCAF would make it necessary to develop the F5 standard of the Rafale, if only to ensure the continuity of the airborne component of the nuclear deterrent.

"It is important to ensure that we have the means to develop a robust and efficient F5 standard, especially as the SCAF NGF will probably not carry nuclear weapons as early as 2040," the parliamentarian wrote in his budgetary opinion on the air force.

For the moment, the contours of the Rafale F5 have not been definitively decided. In an interview given to DSI, General Frédéric Parisot, Major General of the French Air Force, said that it "will be equipped with an impressive number of capabilities, some of which we have not yet imagined". This new standard "will enable us to further improve the Rafale's first entry capability, with new sensors and weapons, but also with the ability to communicate, collaborate and be interoperable," he said.
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
10,531
2,339

1655285662462.png

1655285655979.png
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
I mean your argument that Rafale & EF are 5 th gen without LO is not correct.
Rafale has all the assets of a 5th gen except the stealth bays : agile, supercruise, sensor fusion.
Agility is questionnable in the F35 case. Supercruise is definitively not the case of the stealphy goose at least with the actual engine.
The "affordability", an asset promoted by LM at the beginning of their "5th gen marketing operation", is not the case of F22, F35 or Rafale.

View attachment 23936
View attachment 23935
Interesting ! the AA missile itself is now stealthy. Maybe for use not in internal bay.
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
65
16
India
Rafale has all the assets of a 5th gen except the stealth bays : agile, supercruise, sensor fusion.
Agility is questionnable in the F35 case. Supercruise is definitively not the case of the stealphy goose at least with the actual engine.
The "affordability", an asset promoted by LM at the beginning of their "5th gen marketing operation", is not the case of F22, F35 or Rafale.
Just by adding stealthy bays Rafale cannot become a 5th gen fighter. Rafale has all the characteristics of a 4.5 gen fighter which you have mentioned but it is far from 5th gen tech. With F35, 5th gen tech has moved much ahead in stealth, design, materials, computing and sensors. Rafale is a gen behind 5th gen. Even TEDBF which is essentially a Rafale mk 2 will be 5 minus gen fighter but not true 5th gen.
You mentioned the agility of F35 but are forgetting that it is replacing multiple types of fighters as varied as VSTOL harriers to A10 & A6 to F16. This is the level of sophistication in mission compatibility which has been achieved by F-35.
 
Last edited:

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
Just by adding stealthy bays Rafale cannot become a 5th gen fighter. Rafale has all the characteristics of a 4.5 gen fighter which you have mentioned but it is far from 5th gen tech. With F35, 5th gen tech has moved much ahead in stealth, design, materials, computing and sensors. Rafale is a gen behind 5th gen. Even TEDBF which is essentially a Rafale mk 2 will be 5 minus gen fighter but not true 5th gen.
You mentioned the agility of F35 but are forgetting that it is replacing multiple types of fighters as varied as VSTOL harriers to A10 & A6 to F16. This is the level of sophistication in mission compatibility which has been achieved by F-35.
Explain me, except stealth, what can't make Rafale a 5th gen ?
As for now, your marvelous 5th gen F35 is not able to fight (according to some US generals) and is not mature enough to have its FOC.... more than 15 years after the flight of the first pre serial one !
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
65
16
India
Explain me, except stealth, what can't make Rafale a 5th gen ?
As for now, your marvelous 5th gen F35 is not able to fight (according to some US generals) and is not mature enough to have its FOC.... more than 15 years after the flight of the first pre serial one !
I have already explained in the post you have quoted how Rafale is a wonderful 4.5 g fighter but nowhere close to 5 g not even a 5 minus gen.
Its the high level of requirements of US armed forces meeting which will take its time for FOC of F 35. Thats why i said 5th gen tech has evolved way beyond anything acheived by Rafale. Soon F35 will start incorporating some of 6th gen tech.
F35s are performing missions in south china sea and have even encountered J20s as per reports. I dnt think any armed force will send non fight ready fighters to these missions. Its your wish if you want to hang on to some paid articles by lobbies of rival companies. But both 5 g & 4.5 g jets have there own utilities and Rafale & F35 are good in their respective domains. Overhiping one & mud slinging other is completely unnecessary.
 
Last edited:

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
65
16
India
In a peace time, it's every day !
If top of the line jets countering each other in conflict zone and venturing into enemy airspace is considered peacetime mission by you then certainly you are unaware of many things and the reason for your delusion/misinformation regarding F-35
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
414
191
Australia
Well we better get use to the frogs telling us how great the Rafale is. Dassault are saying it will be 2050's before their new plane. Mind you in 2049 they will still be telling us, it is better than all the real 5th gen that will be flying
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
If top of the line jets countering each other in conflict zone and venturing into enemy airspace is considered peacetime mission by you then certainly you are unaware of many things and the reason for your delusion/misinformation regarding F-35
No venturing in China airspace my dear ! It's far too risky.
And maybe some plight above Syria or Iran. Not very strong air defense in these areas.
F35 is, for now, mainly a very effective marketing project (nice job LM and US succesive governments). Not a weapon.
Well we better get use to the frogs telling us how great the Rafale is. Dassault are saying it will be 2050's before their new plane. Mind you in 2049 they will still be telling us, it is better than all the real 5th gen that will be flying
Rafale is mature, combat proven, and with a very strong road map. F35 is ten years late on shedule and not yet FOC. We may speak when FOC will be achieved. During this time, it's mainly a dream.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
414
191
Australia
So is the old hornet fa-18b mature, that was the same year as the Rafale. They are retiring now. Your mature is verging on obsolete. The French air force will be considered second tier in the 2030's. Even now it is second rate to many others with less GDP.
 
Last edited:

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,074
701
California
So is the old hornet fa-18b mature, that was the same year as the Rafale. They are retiring now. Your mature is verging on obsolete. The French air force will be considered second tier in the 2030's. Even now it is second rate to many others with less GDP.
Has the old Rafale been upgraded to F4 yet?