EMBRAER - KC - 390

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,153
6,362
Tripura, NE, India
I don't know what it is, but turbofan powered medium/heavy lift aircrafts look so darn beautiful. C-17s, C-2s, KC-390 you name it. Surprisingly, I don't like the looks of a C-5 Galaxy, little over the top for my liking. Not to mention quality meme material.
1564842574114.png



About HAL hanging their head in shame, a bit much don't you think ? I am pretty sure I can post a similar video about ISRO and tell the Brazilians to hang their head in shame. But that entirely misses the point, Brazil went into developing planes, business jets around the same time when we were developing nuclear weapons,ballistic missiles, satellite launch vehicles and what not. Every country has it own unique path created by its history, geography and politics etc. There is no point in beating ourselves up for not taking Brazil's path, it wasn't for us anyway.

If Brazil can today produce world class cargo planes, I am happy for them. More so because they are a developing nation, like us. I am sure they went through a lot to get this far, that struggle is what makes it sweet anyway. But we are no slouches on the missiles, satellites, space and many other fronts.

HAL, our MoD, bureaucracy, politics they all deserve a kick in the butt for their failures. But lets admit it, we've never put in as much resources or attention as required to build an aviation industry. The kind of attention we paid to missiles, remember IGMDP ? Where is the aviation counterpart to it ?

That's why Brazil is where it is and we are where we are.
 
Last edited:

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
11,888
7,448
Mumbai
I don't know what it is, but turbofan powered medium/heavy lift aircrafts look so darn beautiful. C-17s, C-2s, KC-390 you name it. Surprisingly, I don't like the looks of a C-5 Galaxy, little over the top for my liking. Not to mention quality meme material.
View attachment 8795


About HAL hanging their head in shame, a bit much don't you think ? I am pretty sure I can post a similar video about ISRO and tell the Brazilians to hang their head in shame. But that entirely misses the point, Brazil went into developing planes, business jets around the same time when we were developing nuclear weapons,ballistic missiles, satellite launch vehicles and what not. Every country has it own unique path created by its history, geography and politics etc. There is not point in beating ourselves up for not taking Brazil's path, it wasn't for us anyway.

If Brazil can today produce world class cargo planes, I am happy for them. More so because they are a developing nation, like us. I am sure they went through a lot to get this far, that struggle is what makes it sweet anyway. But we are no slouches on the missiles, satellites, space and many other fronts.

HAL, our MoD, bureaucracy, politics they all deserve a kick in the butt for their failures. But lets admit it, we've never put in as much resources or attention as required to build an aviation industry. The kind of attention we paid to missiles, remember IGMDP ? Where is the aviation counterpart to it ?

That's why Brazil is where it is and we are where we are.
Embraer sought technical assistance from HAL in its very initial stages of setting up its first plant . You can get more on this from @Milspec. Look at the number of aircraft they've designed and what's come out of HAL's stable. Our development trajectory is flawed. We went in to design a 80 KN jet engine where we should've begun with the 20 KN ones, which incidentally HAL is undertaking now. We manufactured BM's NW & an SSBN but not a decent Tank Or Infantry weapons. How do you like that?
 

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,153
6,362
Tripura, NE, India
Our development trajectory is flawed. We went in time design a 80 KN jet engine where we should've begun with the 20 KN ones, which incidentally HAL is undertaking now.
Absolutely correct. Like I said we needed an aviation counter part to the IGMDP. That would have allowed us to build up capability gradually and not take up abrupt very ambitious missions. Think about trying to make the Agni-5 without making the Agni-1,2,3(and their wide bunch of versions), that would end in a disaster much like the Kaveri. The other thing is they never had to work with the constraints of sanctions that would force us to take up the Kaveri project anyway.
As is obvious, all nations have our own unique path. There is usually no broad right or wrong, but a lot of smaller wrongs or rights that add up over time.
We manufactured BM's NW & an SSBN but not sure decent Tank Or Infantry weapons. How do you like that?
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so painful.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Did I complain about bureaucracy, politics and corruption yet ? I always look at South Africa when I feel like crying about these weapons. Its a very gratifying experience.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
1,711
2,147
United States

I hope HAL / MoD take a close look at this & hang their collective heads in shame.

there are two things that have marred Indian development.

> Indigenous development of turbofan/turboprop engines.
>Poor leadership of DPSU's like HAL.

Engine:
HAL has always been the sweatshop for Aeronautics deals negotiated by empowered committee's comprised of MoD/South block leadership which carry out their diktats. Looking at the number of aircraft manufactured by HAL, there is no reason why HAL couldn't have secured end-user rights to manufacture and develop aero engines like the Adour, Al31FP, R25-300, or even the whatever engine comes for the MMRCA-2.

Kaveri and it's variants and lack of priority associated is an absolute travesty. Other than that the HTFE 25 and HTSE 1200, to are sitting on a back burner as a tent space specimens with a couple of tests happening in a year. India needs an Engine, without it's own engine that is free to manufacture it cant do much with platforms. And for HAL to survive in an military aerospace industry it either has to develop it's own or has to straight up buyout the rights from other manufacturers to support the stable it wants to manufacture. i.e. a 85/100kn variant for it's single and twin fighter jet, a 30kn engine for it's jet trainers, a medium power turboshaft for supporting trainers, light and medium helos and and high power turboshaft for its Medium lifters and heavy helos. HAL either needs to get into strategic partnerships and secure rights for the powerplants or develop them, unless no matter how much it tries it will remain the butt of all the jokes. If we can develop cyrogenic engines there is no reason to believe we cannot develop the right powerplant for military and civil markets. A good example is Mahindra's collaboration with Renault/Peugeot for it's Mhawk series of engines which it pretty much uses in every platform it launches.


Leadership:

There is a brilliant PSU success story in the realm of Indian history - Maruti Udyog Limited. Here we had a PSU with monopoly and private sector company which was incrementally given complete leadership. The management and leadership of the private partner propelled the company to be an absolute market leader, that is the same formula for HAL. Unless HAL gets a leadership which can stand on its own and compete with international competition within the country, the company will either remain a roadblock in India's quest for self-sufficiency or will slowly wither away into oblivion.
 

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,153
6,362
Tripura, NE, India
Other than that the HTFE 25 and HTSE 1200, to are sitting on a back burner as a tent space specimens with a couple of tests happening in a year. India needs an Engine, without it's own engine that is free to manufacture it can do much with platforms.
The kind of TET we are getting right now with the Kaveri should allow us to make a high bypass turbofan engine of around ~280 KN thrust if bypass ratio is increased from the current 0.16:1 to >5:1. That's more than enough to make our own heavy lifter, assuming we ever intend to make it at all. And the HTFE-25's core will allow the development of 110 KN+ high bypass turbofan engine. Same class that powers the KC-390.

Low bypass turbofans are like the most difficult engines in the world(well cryogenics/ramjets/scramjets are no piece of cake either), I really feel for the scientists and engineers that began work on the Kaveri. Compared to that high bypass are relatively less problematic, at least on the temp requirements, no afterburners etc. They will have their own problems no doubt, mounting the engine for a bench test will be all kinds of pain.

The point is we have the ingredients to make it work. But our experience with RTA tells us we are pretty darn useless even with the ingredients. Its just disappointing.
 

jetray

Well-Known member
Mar 15, 2018
729
516
India
Leadership:

There is a brilliant PSU success story in the realm of Indian history - Maruti Udyog Limited. Here we had a PSU with monopoly and private sector company which was incrementally given complete leadership. The management and leadership of the private partner propelled the company to be an absolute market leader, that is the same formula for HAL. Unless HAL gets a leadership which can stand on its own and compete with international competition within the country, the company will either remain a roadblock in India's quest for self-sufficiency or will slowly wither away into oblivion.
Political class & the ppl who run these orgs both need to be mature for that.
Till we have "yes sir" type sycophants in our country thats never going to happen. Most of the time ppl in these orgs dont work for the company or the country but for the political masters which gives no place for professionalism.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
3,628
5,776
Bangalore
KC-390: Portugal signs contract to acquire five aircraft


Évora, Portugal, August 22, 2019 - The Government of Portugal and Embraer today signed, at a ceremony held at Embraer's premises in Évora, the contract for the acquisition of five KC-390 multi-mission transport aircraft, support and services and simulator. as part of the process of modernizing the capabilities of the Portuguese Air Force to support the operations of the Portuguese Armed Forces and increase readiness for missions of public interest. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2023.

The KC-390 is designed to set new standards for efficiency and productivity in its class while delivering the lowest life cycle cost in the industry. The aircraft meets the requirements of the Portuguese Air Force and is capable of various civilian missions, including humanitarian support, medical evacuation, search and rescue and forest fire fighting, and adds superior cargo and troop transport and launch capabilities, and in-flight refueling.

“This is the crowning achievement of a careful selection process that makes us proud, representing the entry of the KC-390 into the international market. The KC-390 will meet Portugal's operational needs, ensuring the ability to integrate with allied nations for decades to come, ”said Jackson Schneider, President and CEO of Embraer Defense & Security. "This contract strengthens the industrial partnership between Portugal and Embraer, contributing to the development of the engineering and aeronautics industry in Portugal."

Portugal is the largest international partner of the KC-390 Program and its participation in aircraft development and production is recognized to have had a positive economic impact on job creation, new investments, increased exports and technological advances.

The KC-390 received the Type Certificate from the National Civil Aviation Agency (ANAC) of Brazil in 2018 and is in full serial production. The aircraft is scheduled to start service in the third quarter of 2019 with the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and more deliveries are expected during the year.

Caption (left to right): Portuguese Air Force Commander, General Joaquim Borrego; Prime Minister of Portugal, António Costa; and President of Embraer Defense & Security, Jackson Schneider, during a ceremony to sign the KC-390 acquisition contract, held at Embraer facilities in Évora, Portugal, on August 22, 2019. Embraer KC-390 Cockpit


 

ni8mare

Well-Known member
Dec 7, 2017
241
669
India
Last edited:

ni8mare

Well-Known member
Dec 7, 2017
241
669
India
Collapse of Boeing-Embraer deal could have major impact on C-390 Millennium’s future
By: Valerie Insinna   19 hours ago
31017

Plumes of water form arches over a KC-390 plane during a water salute at the air base in Anapolis, Brazil, Wednesday, Sept. 4, 2019. The new aircraft is capable of transporting and launching cargo and troops, as well as a wide range of missions: air evacuation, search and rescue, firefighting, air refueling and humanitarian aid. (AP Photo/Eraldo Peres)
WASHINGTON — Boeing’s termination of a $4.2 billion deal for a majority stake in Embraer’s commercial aviation business could have widespread implications on the Brazilian firm’s flagship military aircraft.

Boeing on Saturday announced that it would walk away from a joint venture that would give it an 80 percent stake in Embraer’s commercial business, as well as a 49 percent stake in the company’s C-390 Millennium cargo plane.

Although Boeing said that the company would maintain previous teaming agreements to support Embraer with marketing the C-390 internationally, analysts told Defense News that the vitriol between the two companies could portend a wider collapse of their collaboration in the military sphere.

“The future of the KC-390 without Boeing — or without a U.S. defense prime helping — isn’t all that great,” said Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with the Teal Group. “It just seems like cooler heads should probably prevail.”

At Dubai Air Show last November, the companies announced the formation of a new entity known as Boeing-Embraer Defense set up specifically to proactively market the C-390 around the world — a step up from previous agreements that had Boeing in more of a hands-off role. The agreement gave Boeing a new plane that could compete head-to-head against Lockheed Martin’s C-130, and gave Embraer the resources to match.

The big question now is whether Embraer seeks out partnerships elsewhere for either the KC-390 or its commercial business, said Byron Callan, an analyst with Capital Alpha Partners.

“I just wonder, is there something else or someone else that emerges in 2021 or 2022 that ties up with Embraer. Could that be Chinese? Indian? Another country, company or entity outside of the United States?” he said. “That would be a more interesting broader change for aerospace, that has military implications as well, too.”

It’s even possible that Airbus could try to usurp Boeing’s role as Embraer’s partner on the C-390, said Callan, who noted that Airbus — like Boeing — does not offer a medium cargo transport aircraft that directly competes against the C-130.

On Monday morning, Embraer announced that it had filed arbitration proceedings against Boeing, capping off an angry back-and-forth between both companies that spanned the weekend.

When Boeing announced it was walking away from the deal on Saturday, the company claimed it had “worked diligently over more than two years” to finalize the transaction, but that Embraer left some conditions of the master transaction agreement, or MTA, unresolved.

"It is deeply disappointing,” said Marc Allen, Boeing’s president of Embraer Partnership & Group Operations. “But we have reached a point where continued negotiation within the framework of the MTA is not going to resolve the outstanding issues."

Embraer, however, issued a scathing statement of its own, asserting that it had fulfilled all contractual obligations and blaming the failure of the deal on Boeing’s continued financial problems and the fallout from two fatal 737 MAX crashes.


“Embraer believes strongly that Boeing has wrongfully terminated the MTA, that it has manufactured false claims as a pretext to seek to avoid its commitments to close the transaction and pay Embraer the US$4.2 billion purchase price,” the company said.

“We believe Boeing has engaged in a systematic pattern of delay and repeated violations of the MTA, because of its unwillingness to complete the transaction in light of its own financial condition and 737 MAX and other business and reputational problems.”

Boeing’s decision to break its agreement with Embraer makes sense from a financial standpoint, Cai Von Rumohr, a defense analyst with Cowen, wrote in an email to investors. Because of COVID-19’s impact on the aerospace industry, $4.2 billion seems an inflated price for Boeing to pay to acquire a controlling stake in Embraer’s commercial business, and terminating the deal may help to free up cash that Boeing needs in the near-term.

But while Von Rumohr said he believes Boeing and Embraer will continue to collaborate on the C-390, it will depend on whether the relationship can be salvaged.

“This issue is, how pissed off is Embraer now, and is this something they’re likely to get over to continue with what was a teaming agreement that made a whole lot of sense for both parties?” Von Rumohr told Defense News.

Another major question is how the COVID-19 crisis effects worldwide defense spending, with implications for nations’ domestic industries as well the international defense industrial base.

Callan noted that some countries who have ordered the aircraft such as Brazil or Portugal “are probably looking at different defense budget projections.

Aboulafia added that the dissolution of the partnership increases the likelihood that Embraer will need stimulus funds from the government of the Brazil to help fortify its commercial sector during the COVID-19 pandemic.

“That money could easily come out of defense spending, which would impact Embraer defense programs, particularly Gripen or C-390,” he said.

==========================================================
If MOD had any sense .....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gautam

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,153
6,362
Tripura, NE, India
We should move in......and get at least 60-70% stake in KC - 390.....if only HAL/MOD had any interest

MARTT....LRMPA.....AWACS ....if only HAL/MOD had any vision..........but no we have to do every thing ourselves
If MOD had any sense .....
It is a great prospect no doubt. However to do this the MoD would need to have a level of foresight unseen ever before in India. Many similar prospects came and went from Ukraine/Russia and the MoD just let it pass. Don't keep high hopes mate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vicky

ni8mare

Well-Known member
Dec 7, 2017
241
669
India
It is a great prospect no doubt. However to do this the MoD would need to have a level of foresight unseen ever before in India. Many similar prospects came and went from Ukraine/Russia and the MoD just let it pass. Don't keep high hopes mate.
That's why I have said....if only HAL/MOD had any vision...But it Was a great opportunity
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,323
1,103
Bangalore
That's why I have said....if only HAL/MOD had any vision...But it Was a great opportunity
I hope we don't lose this to China now. This is golden opportunity to enter into aviation industry in a big way. HAL can become multinational company and be part of global aviation chain...

Tag this to pmo and narendra modi and others to awake them from sleep...






Ninjamonkey on Twitter
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
11,888
7,448
Mumbai
I hope we don't lose this to China now. This is golden opportunity to enter into aviation industry in a big way. HAL can become multinational company and be part of global aviation chain...

Tag this to pmo and narendra modi and others to awake them from sleep...






Ninjamonkey on Twitter
Apparently, the Embraer group is divided into 3 groups. One for Civilian airliners, one for military applications ( involved with SAAB for the JV to manufacture of Gripens in Brazil) & the 3rd for biz jets. There's some overlap between the first & second groups where civilian aircraft can also be converted to military transportation aircraft, where the necessary adaptation is done by the second group for local consumption by Brazilian armed forces & export to other militaries.

The present deal between Boeing & Embraer which collapsed was exclusively for the civilian airliners.

What GoI can do is apart from involving HAL, they've got to involve a pvt enterprise like say Tatas or Mahindra or RIL , form a JV with the majority stake being with the pvt enterprise & HAL offering their technical expertise in the JV especially assuming that this prospective JV would establish manufacturing in India to cater to the enormous demand here

As it is there's been plenty of opposition to the Boeing Embraer JV with the political opposition there likening it to selling the family silver apart from the press, the unions , sections of the government and some opposition from the military too - which happens to be quite influential in Brazilian politics & economic matters. The deal only proceeded with Bolsinaro assuming power.

It's doable from India's PoV except that we lack both the foresight & risk taking appetite. As of now it's advantage China as Harbin Group of China already has a JV with Embraer to manufacture a civilian airliner for local use with the multiple airliners in operation there. That & the Chinese are prowling about seeking to by troubled firms with a huge war chest .The only silver lining from India's PoV is that there's great discomfort within the Brazilian establishment about involving the Chinese as one of the quoted article States.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
3,628
5,776
Bangalore
These babus become vocal only after retirement. Could have done far more with in service.

Expecting govt to invest in some foreign company is asking too much. It should be tied up with assured orders. Be it military or civil. Else these will remain just gossips.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Falcon