Cole_phelps

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India could have laid all speculation to rest by releasing more convincing evidence than some MS-Paint images. Burden of proof lies with those who make claim.

Do you have any proof Osama bin laden was killed in Abottabad, Pakistan? Whole thread was deleted from Abdul forum. If you don't believe it, file a case against western government before ranting here. We look forward to your wisdom in pushing OBL's death aa MS-PAINT.

Those who didn't even accept bodies of their army personnels will accept a pic? They won't and they won't let you either.

1947-48, 1965, 1971, 1999, where they spoke truth? Where's hamdoor comission report? Where are 3 or 2 pilots, doosra banda, arrested by PA? If second pilot died, where's the body?

Burden of proof is on us but a prostitute saying i am virgin isn't credible enough, given past precedence.
 
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Saaho

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Do you have any proof Osama bin laden was killed in Abottabad, Pakistan? Whole thread was deleted from Abdul forum. If you don't believe it, file a case against western government before ranting here. We look forward to you wisdom and glass half full armaments.
Well, Al-Queda in May-2011 confirmed the death of Laden and vowed revenge. Now, if we get something similar from Pakistan, it will be a different point altogether...
 

Saaho

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This is a national security matter , not salman khans big boss reality show.
Notice how the Pakistanis didnt reveal till now how many of their soldiers were butchered in kargil or kept the media out of the balakot madrassa for 40 days .
Or China does not give any details on the lac situation.
And people like you want a live telecast from the unit hq. Very childish behavior
If it is a national security matter then don't make a claim at all. Why to make unsubstantiated claim? Just take action and be done with it.

If you wanted to communicate given that the action was taken few weeks after 14th Feb terrorist attack, better be prepared to provide proof.

Sorry, but this "national security" looks pretty much a failure to manage perception to say the least.
Those who didn't even accept bodies of their army personnels will accept a pic? They won't and they won't let you either.

1947-48, 1965, 1971, 1999, where they spoke truth? Where's hamdoor comission report? Where are 3 or 2 pilots, doosra banda, arrested by PA? If second pilot died, where's the body?
If you blow up entire god damn building sky high, there is nothing much left to deny.
 
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Cole_phelps

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Well, Al-Queda in May-2011 confirmed the death of Laden and vowed revenge. Now, if we get something similar from Pakistan, it will be a different point altogether...

Al-Queda is credible now? More than Indian armed forces?

But Pakistan maintained OBL is not in their territory! So how he was killed in Abottabad? You believe them, atleast a part of PA/ISPR, right?


If you blow up entire god damn building sky high, there is nothing much left to deny.

No one claimed we blew Mujahid hostel sky high. Do paste reference here otherwise.

P.S: Even the weapon we used against JeM, spice2000, doesn't claim of blowing building sky high!!
 
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Saaho

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Al-Queda is credible now? More than Indian armed forces?
Bin-Laden was their leader, so if they say he is dead, we will believe it. If they say that their leader was killed in Pakistan, then yes, it is a confirmation.

But Pakistan maintained OBL is not in their territory! So how he was killed in Abottabad? You believe them, atleast a part of PA/ISPR, right?

Here is what they said officially after the killing :
The death of bin Laden is a "major setback to terrorist organisations around the world".

"This operation was conducted by the US Forces in accordance with declared US policy that Osama bin Laden will be eliminated in a direct action by the US forces, wherever found in the world."

We will not allow our soil to be used against any other country for terrorism and therefore I think it's a great victory, it's a success and I congratulate the success of this operation.

They never claimed that he was not killed in Abottabad. Because that position is not defensible. They only claimed lack of knowledge of his presence in Pakistan.

Right now, their claim is that India missed all the targets. And there was/is no terrorists in that building. There is/was no terrorist in the building is a bullshit claim because the place was also named by US as a terror training camp. That said, India missed the target that claim is a set back to us. It is a mark of failure on our forces. At least on a perception level if not anything else.

When US hits a target, it is not hard to see that the target is hit. When we hit the target, be it Surgical Strike 1 or 2, it is always dubious and without any evidence. That is in my book a failure. Failure of perception management if not real military failure. I have no evidence to suggest that India hit the terror camp. The more I look for evidence, the more it suggests that we failed hitting the target. I only have words from few folks I trust.
 

Saaho

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No one claimed we blew Mujahid hostel sky high. Do paste reference here otherwise.

P.S: Even the weapon we used against JeM, spice2000, doesn't claim of blowing building sky high!!
Err.. the point was : IF we had BLOWN the thing sky high, there would not have been any point for Pakistan to deny us blowing that building.
 

Cole_phelps

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They never claimed that he was not killed in Abottabad. Because that position is not defensible. They only claimed lack of knowledge of his presence in Pakistan.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Really? How far was OBL from a major cantonment area of PA?

And if Pakistan is so "doodh ka dhula", why is Dr Afridi still in jail?

Right now, their claim is that India missed all the targets. And there was/is no terrorists in that building. There is/was no terrorist in the building is a bullshit claim because the place was also named by US as a terror training camp. That said, India missed the target that claim is a set back to us. It is a mark of failure on our forces. At least on a perception level if not anything else.

When US hits a target, it is not hard to see that the target is hit. When we hit the target, be it Surgical Strike 1 or 2, it is always dubious and without any evidence. That is in my book a failure.

Please post sat pics of abottabad raid or live ops here except that "fake/propaganda pic of OBL's body (abduls lingo)". Where is dead body of OBL? I need DNA evidence from corpse.

Balakot was in wikileaks as a terrorist training camp since long. You are not only raising questions on IAF but also on efficacy of onborad computers, Military sats and seeker of spice 2000 as you can only fire weapon when computer gives go ahead.

So we and others can inject sats at right orbit and elevation while same sats gives us wrong coordinates and images?
 
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shaxm

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:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Really? How far was OBL from a major cantonment area of PA?

And if Pakistan is so "doodh ka dhula", why is Dr Afridi still in jail?



Please post sat pics of abottabad raid or live ops here except that "fake/propaganda pic of OBL's body (abduls lingo)". Where is dead body of OBL? I need DNA evidence from corpse.

Balakot was in wikileaks as a terrorist training camp since long. You are not only raising questions on IAF but also on efficacy of onborad computers, Military sats and seeker of spice 2000 as you can only fire weapon when computer gives go ahead.

So we and others can inject sats at right orbit and elevation while same sats gives us wrong coordinates and images?


Agree to this. People who are crying IAF missed the target are basically saying that SPICE 2000 is a defective system. The job of military is not to give proofs. They only informed people that they have done taking revenge. People who cry foul because some Wikipedia article thinks those bombings were fake they are either on chrislamocomie payroll or are infected with dhimmi virus. These same people forget that bombed place was closed for more than forty days before they allowed any media person to enter. There are videos doing rounds in SM where the pak army is seen admitting to public that more than 200 of their people died. It quite surprising people still raise question about the event. And this characteristic I have seen only in mainland Indians. No other national even paxtanis behave this way.
 
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Saaho

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Please post sat pics of abottabad raid or live ops here except that "fake/propaganda pic of OBL's body (abduls lingo)". Where is dead body of OBL? I need DNA evidence from corpse.
Here is the basic question, what will you prove by "DNA evidence"? That Osama bin Laden is dead? Well, his own organization says he is dead. US claims he is dead and they killed him. His people (Al-Quaeda and his family) say he is dead and died in Abottobad. There is no conflict of claims so all evidence are now redundant.

Compare this to India's strike where there is a conflict of claim. India says it hit the training schools and killed terrorists. Pakistan says India did not and just blew up some trees and crows. All the publically available satellite evidence supports Pakistan's claim. See, the difference?

You search for evidence when there is a conflict of claim. If all things point to same way, it is quite likely that truth lies that way as well.

Balakot was in wikileaks as a terrorist training camp since long. You are not only raising questions on IAF but also on efficacy of onborad computers, Military sats and seeker of spice 2000 as you can only fire weapon when computer gives go ahead.

So we and others can inject sats at right orbit and elevation while same sats gives us wrong coordinates and images?
A precision bombing that too in mountains is a complex task involving many systems. An error can creep in somewhere because of many reason. To investigate and fix it is the task of military and its engineering corps. What lead to missing the targets (assuming targets were missed indeed) requires investigation. If it was sats, user error, guidance algorithm going haywire or incorrect topographic data those should be investigated.

If it is none of the above and they indeed hit the targets then military and government should be ready with their evidence. This was the second time they conducted the strike which was denied by Pakistan.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Really? How far was OBL from a major cantonment area of PA?

And if Pakistan is so "doodh ka dhula", why is Dr Afridi still in jail?
I am merely telling you what their claims are. What is "controversy" and what is indefensible. Ossam being killed in Pakistan and killed there is undeniable. They don't even attempt that. They had prior knowledge, that is something which is hard to prove so thats the position they are taking.

We could have driven them into a similar hard position by blowing up that madarsa sky high so they could have never claimed that we missed our targets. We did not. Thats my friend is a failure.

Agree to this. People who are crying IAF missed the target are basically saying that SPICE 2000 is a defective system.
A system can fail or user can make a mistake or its dependent systems can fail or simply the system can encounter a situation it has never enountered before. There are many things that can happen. No system is 100% fool proof and war tools have failed in the past too.

The job of military is not to give proofs.
That is an arbitrary qualification. Anyone who claims something has a burden to give evidence. If indian military and government claimed that they hit a target and their claim gets challenged then they better have evidence to the contrary. Especially when their claims in the past have been called into question. If they don't then their claims will carry less weightage in the future.

People who cry foul because some Wikipedia article thinks those bombings were fake they are either on chrislamocomie payroll or are infected with dhimmi virus.
The basic test of truth is this. The more you dig into it, the more evidence comes in its favour. The more and different sources we look for confirming the bombing : Planetlab images, Digital Globe images, the more evidence we find that the place was not hit. Remember, these are direct observations.
 

shaxm

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The basic test of truth is this. The more you dig into it, the more evidence comes in its favour. The more and different sources we look for confirming the bombing : Planetlab images, Digital Globe images, the more evidence we find that the place was not hit. Remember, these are direct observations.
You simply cannot dig into it because the paxtanis closed that place for more than 40 days. You can only speculate why they might have done so. But I am sure you won't do that or maybe you already have a reason something like the place went too cold for 40 days or whatever.
 
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Saaho

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You simply cannot dig into it because the paxtanis closed that place for more than 40 days. You can only speculate why they might have done so. But I am sure you won't do that or maybe you already have a reason something like the place went too cold for 40 days or whatever.
We do have images of the place from two different commercial satellite clusters. They were taken one day or less after the impact. Those pictures show no damage to the building and a known transformation (Near IR to see plantation) show damage to plants. This fits with the narrative of Pakistan and not India.
 

shaxm

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A system can fail or user can make a mistake or its dependent systems can fail or simply the system can encounter a situation it has never enountered before. There are many things that can happen. No system is 100% fool proof and war tools have failed in the past too.


That is an arbitrary qualification. Anyone who claims something has a burden to give evidence. If indian military and government claimed that they hit a target and their claim gets challenged then they better have evidence to the contrary. Especially when their claims in the past have been called into question. If they don't then their claims will carry less weightage in the future.
SPICE system so far has not a single failure. There are multiple ways the target location is inputted into the system. Even if one part goes wrong the missile still has other ways to seek the target. And forget that military will act on the whips of general public. It doesn't happen in India and it doesn't happen anywhere in the world.
 
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shaxm

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We do have images of the place from two different commercial satellite clusters. They were taken one day or less after the impact. Those pictures show no damage to the building and a known transformation (Near IR to see plantation) show damage to plants. This fits with the narrative of Pakistan and not India.
I have seen those pictures I am sure. They didn't have much resolution to infer anything. And SPICE only makes small holes in structures. You need high resolution images to see it.
 

Saaho

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SPICE system so far has not a single failure. There are multiple ways the target location is inputted into the system. Even if one part goes wrong the missile still has other ways to seek the target. And forget that military will act on the whips of general public. It doesn't happen in India and it doesn't happen anywhere in the world.
I have no idea how "target location" is inputted in a PGM like SPICE. I doubt you do as well, if you do then please provide reference. Lastly, IAF has never used this system in a real combat situation before so I will not claim that it cann't fail.

As far as military acting on "whims" of people, all I will say is this : authority is derived by public image. If one has to hide one's action behind authority then their authority fades. Hell, Pakistan demonstrated more authority on this by capturing and parading an Indian pilot even while going against Geneva convention. They claimed and they delivered. We claim and we are asked not to ask for evidence.
 

Saaho

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I have seen those pictures I am sure. They didn't have much resolution to infer anything. And SPICE only makes small holes in structures. You need high resolution images to see it.
Well, we have damage to vegetation which is much easier to find with images and a little bit of processing. Lastly, look at what explaination requires least assumption. India missed target or India so precisely calculated the amount of explosive to be carried by the weapon (SPICE is mainly guidance and glide system) that it made no damage to the building at all. Only some very small holes in the roof which cann't be even seen by a 30 cm resolution satellite picture.
 

randomradio

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You simply cannot dig into it because the paxtanis closed that place for more than 40 days. You can only speculate why they might have done so. But I am sure you won't do that or maybe you already have a reason something like the place went too cold for 40 days or whatever.

He'd rather believe Gafoora, a guy who's a bigger whiner than him, rather than our own military leaders.

Why are you arguing about Pakistan on the LAC thread? It's already gone on long enough. Take it to another thread if you want to continue. Let's go back to China.

 

shaxm

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Well, we have damage to vegetation which is much easier to find with images and a little bit of processing. Lastly, look at what explaination requires least assumption. India missed target or India so precisely calculated the amount of explosive to be carried by the weapon (SPICE is mainly guidance and glide system) that it made no damage to the building at all. Only some very small holes in the roof which cann't be even seen by a 30 cm resolution satellite picture.

If India had missed the target , Emraand and Bajwa Sir ji would had invited the international media to Balakot the very next day, made huge documentaries and would had left no stone unturned to show show incompetent India and IAF is (recall Abhinandan where they didnt miss to do any drama till last moment.). Unfortunately they had to shut the place for 40 days before trying anything of that sort. That right there is the proof the strikes did happen and it did not miss the target.
 

Saaho

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Emraand and Bajwa Sir ji would had invited the international media to Balakot the very next day, made huge documentaries and would had left no stone unturned to show show incompetent India and IAF is (recall Abhinandan where they didnt miss to do any drama till last moment.). Unfortunately they had to shut the place for 40 days before trying anything of that sort. That right there is the proof the strikes did happen and it did not miss the target.
The biggest hole in entire narrative of Pakistan is this : "Doosra Banda". No one know who the hell was this second pilot.

Leaving that entire narrative has been consistent. That madarsa was a terrorist training camp operated by JeM, so they had to fix it before showing to anyone. And as far as parading the incompetence of IAF, they did it a lot. Fragments of SPICE and craters. Even if you take it as false, then the biggest parade was the next day capture of pilot and parading him around. That was the biggest show of incompetence of IAF and "strategic restraint" of Indian leadership.
 

shaxm

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I have no idea how "target location" is inputted in a PGM like SPICE. I doubt you do as well, if you do then please provide reference. Lastly, IAF has never used this system in a real combat situation before so I will not claim that it cann't fail.
It is done by a combination of gps,visual n IR images and so on. Just do a google search lot of that info is out there. and just because IAF has never done this in 'real combat situation' (but has done it probably 100 times in 'practice combat situation') doesnt mean it will fail the first time it lauches it on Pak

As far as military acting on "whims" of people, all I will say is this : authority is derived by public image. If one has to hide one's action behind authority then their authority fades. Hell, Pakistan demonstrated more authority on this by capturing and parading an Indian pilot even while going against Geneva convention. They claimed and they delivered. We claim and we are asked not to ask for evidence.

But they could not make similar media drama with Balakot, instead they had to shut the place for 40 days.
 

Saaho

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It is done by a combination of gps,visual n IR images and so on. Just do a google search lot of that info is out there. and just because IAF has never done this in 'real combat situation' (but has done it probably 100 times in 'practice combat situation') doesnt mean it will fail the first time it lauches it on Pak
But it also does not mean that they will ALWAYS succeed.

But they could not make similar media drama with Balakot, instead they had to shut the place for 40 days.
They had ample opportunity elsewhere. Parading our pilot while our leadership was telling anyone who will listen that military operation was over.