Are we in state of undeclared war?

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
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Dont Forget that It was Bhutto who caused Field Martial Ayub Khan to resign by countrywide protests mobilized by him in 1968.
I don't forget it; nor do I forget the mischief Bhutto played in the first place by misleading Ayub, and giving him totally false pictures about how the world would rally around Pakistan.

Yes i want around at the time but my Grand dad and uncle both were killed by Mukti Bahini, so i may also know a thing or two about East Pakistan crisis.
I am sorry to hear that.

However, it isn't the same as having lived through it and having studied it deeply since then. For starters, you might like to read Mascarenhas and the memoirs of Pakistani soldiers who served through that period.
 
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Pankaj

IAF Fan
Dec 3, 2017
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I do expect a few air strikes deep inside pakistan to force PAF to mount CAP on regular basis in very short term period. IAF may do sweeps and strikes in Pakistan starting April this year or it may have already happened.
@vstol Jockey sounds promising! But what would be IAF's objective for this scenario and at the end of it will it bring peace for atleast a decade?
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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I do expect a few air strikes deep inside pakistan to force PAF to mount CAP on regular basis in very short term period. IAF may do sweeps and strikes in Pakistan starting April this year or it may have already happened.
Very difficult to believe we will use airstrikes across the LoC.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
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@vstol Jockey sounds promising! But what would be IAF's objective for this scenario and at the end of it will it bring peace for atleast a decade?
IAF has done strikes along LOC even earlier but were kept under wraps. I am sure with escalation ladder being controlled by us, we will use IAF to maximum effect very soon.
USE of Air power the second highest stage of escalation, final is use of Navy to declare a blockade.

Very difficult to believe we will use airstrikes across the LoC.
already answered above.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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IAF has done strikes along LOC even earlier but were kept under wraps. I am sure with escalation ladder being controlled by us, we will use IAF to maximum effect very soon.
USE of Air power the second highest stage of escalation, final is use of Navy to declare a blockade.


already answered above.
Also @randomradio

@vstol Jockey You are Right Sir

Even One Pakistani Moderatar of PDF that SOB Oscar said this once

But when he was asked by other pakistanis to elaborate he simply deleted his post

Pakistanis Dont mind getting Hit

What they dont like is when we Go Public that we Hit them hard

That hurts their Ego
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
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Also @randomradio

@vstol Jockey You are Right Sir

Even One Pakistani Moderatar of PDF that SOB Oscar said this once

But when he was asked by other pakistanis to elaborate he simply deleted his post

Pakistanis Dont mind getting Hit

What they dont like is when we Go Public that we Hit them hard

That hurts their Ego
If this is true , it proves that the PA are an utterly shameless & worthless lot , with no strategy worth the name ,content only to show their tactical abilities every now and then .
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
Also @randomradio

@vstol Jockey You are Right Sir

Even One Pakistani Moderatar of PDF that SOB Oscar said this once

But when he was asked by other pakistanis to elaborate he simply deleted his post

Pakistanis Dont mind getting Hit

What they dont like is when we Go Public that we Hit them hard

That hurts their Ego
It's not about ego. If PA accepts they are getting hammered, they will come under pressure to hit back, which they are not capable of doing.

The logistics chain that you are required to maintain at high altitude is extremely expensive and highly taxing. We can do it, they can't. And they know that if they try to escalate, we can return in kind and more. Tomorrow, if we decide to simply walk across the LoC, they can't do anything to stop us. We will keep walking ahead, they will keep falling back.

We will maintain current hostilities today in order to whittle down infiltration, maintain it through the year, and I'm sure the govt will do much more during election time next year. The govt also has to maintain their hawkish stance after all.
 

Pankaj

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Dec 3, 2017
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I believe we need to do much more than just using mortars and occasional use of 105 mm gun. PA can withstand the mortars. Like Trump wants PA to do more against the terrorists, we also need to step up and do more against the PA so they feel the pain.

Meanwhile I came across this recent debate where Gen. Bikram Singh spoke about the issue

 

Pankaj

IAF Fan
Dec 3, 2017
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We have not been able to put an end to the game our neighbor keeps playing is because Indian dispensation is suffering from the most deadly disease called procrastination. We are letting the adversary hit us at will and have mastered the art of keeping up with yesterday. We have lost many opportunities to defang and defeat the enemy, seems we are even suffering with self-doubt, though I hope not. The recent escalation at the border and the attacks in J&K have presented us with another opportunity. We must grab it and hit the vassal state in a manner that it is brought down to its knees and then we will see how even a crow flies across the LoC into India. Due to inactivity the Elephant has lost all awareness of its power but it must wake up to realize it’s true nature now.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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It's not about ego. If PA accepts they are getting hammered, they will come under pressure to hit back, which they are not capable of doing.

The logistics chain that you are required to maintain at high altitude is extremely expensive and highly taxing. We can do it, they can't. And they know that if they try to escalate, we can return in kind and more. Tomorrow, if we decide to simply walk across the LoC, they can't do anything to stop us. We will keep walking ahead, they will keep falling back.

We will maintain current hostilities today in order to whittle down infiltration, maintain it through the year, and I'm sure the govt will do much more during election time next year. The govt also has to maintain their hawkish stance after all.
The Government will have to come out with Some SOLID success
This current Tit for tat will not satisfy the voters

Right now we are stuck in a Groove of 120 mm mortars and 105 mm guns

There fore when the Right time comes ; we will have to take it to the Next level
ie 155 mm ; MBRLs and Air strikes

And the Best part is pakistan is Itself ASKING to be Hit

Since the Hostilities have been going on for a while they cannot play Victim here

In the last few months No country has come out with any statement of support in favour of Pakistan

With US and Afghanistan breathing down their neck ; The pakistanis are heading for a
Severe humilation
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,137
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India
The Government will have to come out with Some SOLID success
This current Tit for tat will not satisfy the voters

Right now we are stuck in a Groove of 120 mm mortars and 105 mm guns

There fore when the Right time comes ; we will have to take it to the Next level
ie 155 mm ; MBRLs and Air strikes

And the Best part is pakistan is Itself ASKING to be Hit

Since the Hostilities have been going on for a while they cannot play Victim here

In the last few months No country has come out with any statement of support in favour of Pakistan

With US and Afghanistan breathing down their neck ; The pakistanis are heading for a
Severe humilation
We are also using the T-55 as an infantry tank, air defence guns, recoiless rifles and ATGMs.

Heavy artillery and MBRLs are for longer ranges, which we don't really need right now. We are not dealing with armour and large field formations. 105mm will do pretty much the same thing 155mm does.

As for airstrikes, I suppose something like the Rudra can be used, but I'm not sure if that's been cleared since we aren't supposed to bring armed aircraft up to 10Km from the LoC. But I doubt it will ever come to that.

They are more terrified of the prospect of another public revelation of a surgical strike than an air strike. Abbottabad was extremely embarrassing for the Pakistanis. Their only excuse at the time was the western border was undefended. That excuse won't work at the eastern border. We have been launching smaller cross border raids across the LoC also.

Internationally, they never really had much respect. Their only importance to the West is their geographical location. Primarily because Afghanistan is land-locked.
 

Pankaj

IAF Fan
Dec 3, 2017
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New Delhi
Muridke_Bahawalpur2.PNG


Treatment to any ailment must be aimed at fixing the root of the problem, if the focus is only on the symptoms, the problem can and will reoccur.

Point A - Muridke, Point B - Bahawalpur

Two points to look at if we want to take out the root of terror but the question is which one do we pick A or B or both, by the way B has caused us more trouble off late. The fact also is that both are across the IB and herein comes the risk of escalation. But should we be worried about escalation?
 

screambowl

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Dec 19, 2017
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Well because Chinese want Pakistan to keep India busy in Kashmir. And Pakistanis are those fools who get provoked easily, first by Americans during cold war then now by Chinese. There is no solution for this.
This is to continue and war will be declared when the inflection point is reached, which is when they intrude into the Indian territory and capture it.
 

Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
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This tit for tat scenario isn’t good for elections. The gov will either go for bits of POK or take out a major character like the Americans did.
 

RATHORE

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Dec 2, 2017
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IAF has done strikes along LOC even earlier but were kept under wraps. I am sure with escalation ladder being controlled by us, we will use IAF to maximum effect very soon.
USE of Air power the second highest stage of escalation, final is use of Navy to declare a blockade.


already answered above.
Is this what you're talking about?

EXCLUSIVE: In 2002, India's Fighter Jets Hit Pakistan In A Surgical Strike You've Never Been Told About
The untold story of an incredible Indian Air Force secret mission during Operation Parakram.

AFP/GETTY IMAGES

An undated Defence Ministry photograph shows an Indian Air Force French-made Mirage 2000 jet.

It was about 2 am on 31 July, 2002. Flight Lieutenant Rajiv Mishra, a 29-year-old fighter pilot, was woken up at his living quarters at the Ambala Air Force Station. Leave for Srinagar immediately with laser designation equipment, he was told. A transport aircraft was ready and waiting at the base.

He didn't know it then, but he had been drafted for one of the most sensitive missions carried out by the Indian Air Force, the details of which had never been revealed to the outside world, until now.

Mishra flew the Jaguar fighter jet of the Indian Air Force. But that night he had not been woken up to fly. The IAF had recently acquired laser guidance systems from Israel. The technology helped fighter pilots to hit targets accurately once the target has been designated on the system. Mishra was regarded a wizard with the new technology.

Mishra flew the Jaguar fighter jet of the Indian Air Force. But that night he had not been woken up to fly.​
On board the transporter, Mishra and his two colleagues were briefed by the members of the IAF Strike Cell, the elite frontline strike unit of the force, comprising the most skilled fighter pilots and the most lethal aircraft. The mission was stunning — they had to "light up" Pakistan positions along the Line of Control — the de facto border. 'Light up' is military talk for designating a target on the laser guidance system. They grasped the implication immediately: Indian fighter jets would lock on and hit the Pakistani positions, something the IAF has rarely done during peace time.

It was a sensitive moment in the fraught India-Pakistan ties. Militants had stormed the Indian Parliament just seven months ago, in December 2001, triggering a massive military mobilization and standoff on both sides of the border and along the Line of Control. India called it Operation Parakram.

'Light up' is military talk for designating a target on the laser guidance system. They grasped the implication immediately: Indian fighter jets would lock on and hit the Pakistani post, something the IAF has rarely done during peace time.​
BJP's Atal Bihari Vajpayee was Prime Minister and George Fernandes the defence minister. Between May and June 2002, tensions between India and Pakistan were at its heights, following the Kaluchak massacre in May and a failed mediation effort by Russian president Vladimir Putin.

India's defence apparatus suspected a Kargil-like troop build up situation near a border post in the Kel area in the Kupwara sector. Pakistani troops were raining shells on Indian positions from there. There was a need for strong retaliation.

The initial plan was to send in the India Army to attack the Pakistani positions. But the plan was changed after quick consultation with the then Army Chief, General Sundararajan Padmanabhan. Instead of a ground assault, it was decided to soften Pakistani positions using the IAF before the Special Forceswent in.

KAMAL KISHORE / REUTERSThen Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee weighted under garlands put on by his supporters at his residence.
"Typical cold start doctrine in the Air Force terminology was put in practice. The details of this should remain cold. No one should talk about it. What it was intended for was successful," then Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, told HuffPost India.

This account has been pieced together by speaking with multiple people directly involved with the operation. All of them agreed to speak, following months of persuasion, on the condition of anonymity. The IAF declined to comment, as did Flt Lt Mishra, who is now a retired officer and works as a commercial pilot. Typical for a special operation, this mission carried no name.

"Light It Up"

In the tense summer of 2002, the task of carrying out the strikes fell on the Western Air Command. Fighter aircraft including the French-made Mirage 2000, British-made Jaguar fighters and the Russian MiG-21 were moved to forward bases. While the mission was planned to take off from Srinagar, all forward air bases on the West Border were put on alert to be ready for a potential Pakistan retaliation.

That is when Flt Lt Mishra and two colleagues were tasked with "lighting up" the target. Today this can be done using different and more advanced technology. In 2002, it required someone operating from the line of sight of a target to designate it on the laser guidance system. That was going to be the job of the three-men team led by Flt Lt Mishra.

The Half Hour Wait

On the night of 31, senior officials met for the last time at Srinagar go over the details. New Delhi was informed after all ends were tied up. The team was told to wait. Nearly half hour later, the message came back--it was green.

On first light, the team was air lifted from the Srinagar airport on 1 August. Doors of the single-engine Cheetah helicopter had been removed. They would soon find out why.

As the helicopter neared the LoC, they could hear the blasts from the incessant shelling underway. They flew low, close to the ground. When they neared a BSF post just on the LoC, the three men jumped. Their equipment was dropped from the helicopter, and was grabbed by two BSF soldiers. They immediately had to duck into a foxhole. Shells landed on the post even as the Cheetah swiftly moved away.

The IAF fighters had to climb three mountains before they could get close enough to the targets to designate them. They were operating at an altitude of 16,000 feet, with rarefied air, making breathing difficult.​
AFP/GETTY IMAGESAn Indian soldier climbs down the Cheetah helicopter ladder during an air show in Jammu on November 6, 2011.
Missing Camouflage

The Pakistani positions were on an incline and covered with heavy foliage; it was impossible to light up the targets from a distance. They had to go closer. This eventuality had not been accounted for. This meant the IAF men didn't have any camouflage on them. If they walked from the BSF post further, they would be artillery fodder in minutes, because the helicopter movement would have alerted the Pakistani posts.

Time was ticking away — the operations could commence only after the targets had been well identified. They managed to source two camouflage jackets from the BSF post but the three men decided to march on anyway. On the way, they found trees splattered with blood. The night before, the Indian Army had foiled an infiltration bid. The bloodstains on the trees were that of the infiltrating terrorists.

The IAF team had to climb three mountains before they could get close enough to the targets to designate them. They were operating at an altitude of 16,000 feet, with rarefied air, making breathing difficult. Finally after much effort they could close enough to identify and designate the targets on the laser guidance system. Once the job was done, they fell back to a post that was jointly manned by the BSF and the Indian Army.

On the way, they found trees splattered with blood. The night before, the Indian Army had foiled an infiltration bid. The bloodstains on the trees were that of the infiltrating terrorists.​
The Gathering Force

As Ft Lt Mishra and his two colleagues waited in a darkened bunker, Indian Army's Special Forces started moving into the post. Pakistani guns were in full flow. The only lantern in the bunker had been covered with black paper and put underneath a cot. Even a flicker of light would attract shells. Nonetheless, a Major of the Artillery Unit was calculating the Pakistani gun positions and relaying it back.

2 August 2002

As Ft Lt Mishra, his colleagues and the Special Forces waited, a bit of bad news came in--fighter jets weren't being able to take-off because of bad weather. As Pakistan continued to pound Indian posts, everyone dug in. The final assault was pushed back twice. Finally, at 1:30 pm on 2 August, the code came through. The fighters had taken off and the assault had begun.

Mirage-2000 fighters dipped over the horizon, locked on the laser beams and bombed the Pakistani bunkers in the Kel area in Kupwara sector. Due to the sensitive nature of the operation, we are withholding the number of aircraft used in operation and the exact location where the strike took place. The Pakistani bunkers were reduced to rubble. The casualties are unknown.

Shocked by the surprise air raid, the Pakistanis were quick to take counter-measures to confuse the second wave of fighter jets. Left with no option, The IAF team would break radio silence and communicate to the incoming fighters. They directed them correctly. Pakistan would open up its heavy artillery guns--this time to target the Army-BSF post on the LoC where they had taken refuge.

Due to the sensitive nature of the operation, we are withholding the number of aircraft used in operation and the exact location where the strike took place. The Pakistani bunkers were reduced to rubble. The casualties are unknown.​
Ft Lt Mishra and his team would soon begin their long trek back to safety as the Indian Army's Special Forces moved in to eliminate any remaining Pakistani soldiers. By evening the Pakistani guns had fallen silent.

Pakistan never retaliated to the 2002 air strikes. The Vajpayee-led NDA government at the time was happy to keep the strikes under wraps. That the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army were deployed to destroy Pakistan's military capabilities remained known all these years to just a handful of people in the political and civilian leadership, apart from those involved in the operation.

Flt Lt Mishra retired from the IAF as a Wing Commander.

Because the secret operation was never placed on record, no one involved has received a gallantry medal.
 

Levina

Social media admin
Dec 2, 2017
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Why are we short of calling it an act of war?
Have you ever seen AMERICA declare war against Russia despite loosing its soldiers in Syria or vice versa?
Have you seen SAUDI ARABIA declare war againt IRAN despite the losses in YEMEN and their centuries old rivalry?

Lets take a leaf out of their game.


Or the one sitting up higher are fine with few soldiers getting killed, getting their propaganda work, with no harm coming to them which a full blown war can bring?
Going by the statistics, for every one Indian soldier killed our forces have killed 5 Pakistani soldiers though ISPR would never accept the causalities on their side. Soldiers after all are meant to fight the enemy, death is imminent.

Taking this thread to our social media accts.
 

Arvind

The PoKeMon
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Dec 1, 2017
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Have you ever seen AMERICA declare war against Russia despite loosing its soldiers in Syria or vice versa?
Have you seen SAUDI ARABIA declare war againt IRAN despite the losses in YEMEN and their centuries old rivalry?

Lets take a leaf out of their game.
None of them taking head shot using snipers in each other sovereign territories. Both of them using third world as pawn. Unlike Indo-Pak theater.

Going by the statistics, for every one Indian soldier killed our forces have killed 5 Pakistani soldiers though ISPR would never accept the causalities on their side. Soldiers after all are meant to fight the enemy, death is imminent.
How does that make me happy? Poor soldier here, poor soldier there.

Get me some politicians head, of few generals and see how quick the war stops.
 
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