Are we in state of undeclared war?

Shashank

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
866
944
Ban galore
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
Even a 5-6 year old kid would find it hard to believe that PAF would obey commands from political masters. blame politicians for own fear or incompetence. :unsure:
 
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_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
12,190
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Mumbai
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
For all the fanciful stories you spin , wonder why didn't you feel at home in PDF ? What's the matter ? Got busted in one upmanship ? You told half truths and your compatriots came out with tales from the Arabian Nights ?Complete with Djinns et al ?
 
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Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
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United States
Yes, I read that blog and the writer has his own point of view, but I was in Pakistan during Kargil conflict and my classmates were bigshots in PAF , (lost contact with them over the years) and I got a very angry feedback from them. Their wings were clipped and weren't allowed to fight the war despite wanting to.
If i were you, I would stick with the authors version than my classmates who were big shots in the paf.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
How exactly did the army intend to wage a full scale war without having conventional superiority? Also, what solution did Pakistan have when India imposed a naval blockade? Also, india refused to cross LoC as Pakistan had refused to accept it as war. India instead took a devious path and climbed the mountains whereas crossing LoC was a superior option and would have simply cut off all supplies. The refusal to acknowledge the war resulted in higher Indian casualty and delays.

Pakistan could definitely have attacked India with full scale war then or after Musharraf took over too. Who stopped Musharraf from waging war later on? In fact, once India realised that it was not bunch of Kashmiri militants but Pakistan army itself, it immediately mobilised army and impose Naval blockade. Nawaz Sharif later said that Pakistan had just 6 days of fuel to fight the war. In such scenario, army could have done hardly anything.
 

Zen0

Member
Jan 20, 2018
19
7
India
India is to huge & cocky to admit it is facing any huge losses to declare war in retaliation on Pakistan even at a geopolitical front .

While Pakistan is a military puppet that doesn't even keep its own government in the loop most times, they see proxy war as a advantage as it costs far less than formal war. They know they can't win in a direct confrontation so their best chance is to destabilise the region and stretch indian resources.
 

Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
1,078
865
United States
India is to huge & cocky to admit it is facing any huge losses to declare war in retaliation on Pakistan even at a geopolitical front .

While Pakistan is a military puppet that doesn't even keep its own government in the loop most times, they see proxy war as a advantage as it costs far less than formal war. They know they can't win in a direct confrontation so their best chance is to destabilise the region and stretch indian resources.
Well what ever they are trying it doesn’t look like it’s going down well for them.
 
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RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
1,656
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USA
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
Pretty sure the PAF itself refused because 1) It wasn't ready to take on IAF 2) They had been purposefully kept out of loop by the Gang of Four.

I remember seeing an interview of a higher up in the PAF, himself confirming as much.
 

Bali78

Senior member
Dec 26, 2017
1,029
1,046
USA
Well what ever they are trying it doesn’t look like it’s going down well for them.
If you watch Pakisthani tv, some of the more sensible folks admit that the gap between India and Pakisthan is huge and growing fast, both economically as well as militarily. They know in 10 years time, they don't stand a chance against India. It's obvious that PA is aware of this scenario and trying hard to remain relevant at least in Pakisthan!! One factor which helps Pak army is the public perception that Army is less corrupt and more effective compared to their civilian rulers.
 

RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
1,656
1,948
USA
was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
Maybe because literally a group of FOUR Generals in ONE BRANCH of your Military decided all by themselves that they wanted to start a war without informing anyone else or taking requisite permission?

Also, you can deride Sharif all you want, but he was the one who was directly taking American pressure for the misdeeds of Musharraf. And he was the one who had to run over to Washington DC with a beggar bowl in hand when the shit hit the fan.
 

Zen0

Member
Jan 20, 2018
19
7
India
Well what ever they are trying it doesn’t look like it’s going down well for them.
To the ppl , yes. To the military , no. They feed on chaos, Their aim is and always Will be to split India in some form of buffer state between them , to achieve that they will sponsor terrorist activities , industrial sabotage in every nook & corner of India. Bilateral influence has little effect in their military
 
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Arvind

The PoKeMon
Moderator
Dec 1, 2017
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India
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
All glory to Army and all shit to Nawaz. Yes yes, we believe you.

Did Mushi asked Nawaz for Kargil? But PAF was seeking Nawaz approval....lol
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,811
2,593
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
Are you Guys BORN with such an Ability to lie or DO they TEACH you in a school

You pakistanis are the most shameless liars on earth

In 1999 you were under Economic and Military sanctions

After the Nuclear tests of 1998 ; when sanctions were applied
your economy had crashed ; There were No forex reserves

Forget about a full scale war ; you did not have even One week's OIL in your country

kargil war was Initiated by Musharraf for two Aims

1 getting Siachen by cutting off our Highway

2 Getting US and world support for kashmir by Presenting kashmir as a Nuclear flashpoint

But Both aims FLOPPED miserably

We threw you out Militarily and US refused to support you on kashmir

Though we did not cross the LOC because US was STILL YOUR ALLY and we wanted to
prove India as a RESPONSIBLE nuclear weapon state

yet our Army and Air force performed the most admirable task under impossible conditions

Today the Situation is Totally different

When we crossed the LOC in September 2016 ; The Pak Govt went to US with our complaint

And you know what they said " Well you HAD IT COMING "

Now again we will hit you hard very soon and all you will do is cry ; complain and DENY
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
889
410
That's wrong.
PAF always maintains operational capability intact. PAF was not allowed by India's sock puppet Nawaz Sharif to go into war during Kargil.
With respect, given your views on the one hand, and Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail's written, and uncontradicted testimony on the other hand, there is little doubt which account we will believe.

The whole of Pakistan armed forces were strangled and stopped from launching a full blown war on Kargil. Credit to India's lap poodle Nawaz.
It had nothing to do with spares.
Our military was at war but civilian government under Nawaz Sharif refused to recognise the Kargil crisis as a war.
This is contradicted by a whole host of Pakistani generals who have appeared on (Pakistani) talk shows and testified that Kargil was a misadventure launched by only three generals, who kept not just the PAF and the PN, but the rest of the PA in the dark until the fighting started.

This is further contradicted by the adamant insistence, in the teeth of evidence recovered from the dead bodies of Pakistani personnel, that the people in the bunkers on hilltops were 'mujahedin' and had nothing to do with the PA. It was long after the cessation of hostilities that there were, first, reluctant admissions that the formation was the Northern Light Infantry, a para-military Pakistani formation that was absorbed into the regular Pakistan Army as a reward, second, posthumous decorations handed out, the highest award being made to an officer recommended by the Indian Army.

Exactly same thing happened in 1971 when army was at war but Zulfiqar Bhutto gave a damn.
And to think that I had respect for your realism.

Bhutto was nothing, a nobody, in 1971. Despite the elections, and his victory in the west, the country was still under martial law, and that lasted until after the surrender of Dhaka, when Yahya handed over power to Bhutto. So what Bhutto had to do with the army being at war is difficult to understand.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,410
430
UK, Pakistan
With respect, given your views on the one hand, and Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail's written, and uncontradicted testimony on the other hand, there is little doubt which account we will believe.



This is contradicted by a whole host of Pakistani generals who have appeared on (Pakistani) talk shows and testified that Kargil was a misadventure launched by only three generals, who kept not just the PAF and the PN, but the rest of the PA in the dark until the fighting started.

This is further contradicted by the adamant insistence, in the teeth of evidence recovered from the dead bodies of Pakistani personnel, that the people in the bunkers on hilltops were 'mujahedin' and had nothing to do with the PA. It was long after the cessation of hostilities that there were, first, reluctant admissions that the formation was the Northern Light Infantry, a para-military Pakistani formation that was absorbed into the regular Pakistan Army as a reward, second, posthumous decorations handed out, the highest award being made to an officer recommended by the Indian Army.



And to think that I had respect for your realism.

Bhutto was nothing, a nobody, in 1971. Despite the elections, and his victory in the west, the country was still under martial law, and that lasted until after the surrender of Dhaka, when Yahya handed over power to Bhutto. So what Bhutto had to do with the army being at war is difficult to understand.
Obviously Kaiser Tufail had to come up with some reason to save face and not create political turmoil.
The generals in talk shows had bad blood with musharraf.
I can't claim to be the know all on the matter but I was a regular visitor of Masroor base in mid and late 90s and plenty of PAF on duty pilots used to get drunk my flat along with their niches, so I used to know their unadulterated opinion :D

Bhutto was in control in 1971 he sacked many generals and put Yehya on house arrest.
 

Arvind

The PoKeMon
Moderator
Dec 1, 2017
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937
India
Obviously Kaiser Tufail had to come up with some reason to save face and not create political turmoil.
The generals in talk shows had bad blood with musharraf.
I can't claim to be the know all on the matter but I was a regular visitor of Masroor base in mid and late 90s and plenty of PAF on duty pilots used to get drunk my flat along with their niches, so I used to know their unadulterated opinion :D

Bhutto was in control in 1971 he sacked many generals and put Yehya on house arrest.
Drink and false bravado...goes along well.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
889
410
Obviously Kaiser Tufail had to come up with some reason to save face and not create political turmoil.
The generals in talk shows had bad blood with musharraf.
I can't claim to be the know all on the matter but I was a regular visitor of Masroor base in mid and late 90s and plenty of PAF on duty pilots used to get drunk my flat along with their niches, so I used to know their unadulterated opinion :D
In effect, your junior pilots' opinions outweigh both Kaiser Tufail and the generals who spoke against Musharraf.

You will forgive it being pointed out that such a proposition leaves a great deal of room for scepticism.

Bhutto was in control in 1971 he sacked many generals and put Yehya on house arrest.
I am afraid you are wrong again; he sacked not a single general*, he merely put Yahya under house arrest AFTER the surrender at Dhaka, and AFTER Gul Hassan Khan and A. R. Khan forced him to resign, as I mentioned to you earlier. Before that, between the elections and the crackdown of Operation Searchlight, and the 16th of December, he was gallivanting around the country and the world, doing nothing much in particular.

*He sacked Lt Gen Gul Hassan Khan after making him C-in-C, after Yahya Khan was forced to step down as President and as C-in-C (he held both posts together).

Ask me. I was around in those days. You weren't :D
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,410
430
UK, Pakistan
In effect, your junior pilots' opinions outweigh both Kaiser Tufail and the generals who spoke against Musharraf.

You will forgive it being pointed out that such a proposition leaves a great deal of room for scepticism.



I am afraid you are wrong again; he sacked not a single general*, he merely put Yahya under house arrest AFTER the surrender at Dhaka, and AFTER Gul Hassan Khan and A. R. Khan forced him to resign, as I mentioned to you earlier. Before that, between the elections and the crackdown of Operation Searchlight, and the 16th of December, he was gallivanting around the country and the world, doing nothing much in particular.

*He sacked Lt Gen Gul Hassan Khan after making him C-in-C, after Yahya Khan was forced to step down as President and as C-in-C (he held both posts together).

Ask me. I was around in those days. You weren't :D
Dont Forget that It was Bhutto who caused Field Martial Ayub Khan to resign by countrywide protests mobilized by him in 1968.
Yes i want around at the time but my Grand dad and uncle both were killed by Mukti Bahini, so i may also know a thing or two about East Pakistan crisis.