Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

Ah, so more engines means more supercruise. Simple mind, simple answer.

is it a simple mind that confuses an airliner for a warplane?

So you're saying Concorde breaks your rules of physics?
I'm saying you changed the subject by bringing in an airliner. what is the "useful combat load" of the concorde? which military air force flew it?
this is desperate. pointing to the Concorde as an exception proves the rule BTW.

As I said, you should ask around. If you are willing to waste time here, there should be some pilots in the holes you frequent around the Internet.
lots of people on this very forum including picdel and others are telling you that you have gone off the reservation. you have literally had to resort to the concorde an not only that you have once again focused on a detail of the arguement rather than the original subject:
remember, you are attempting to prove to us that the Rafale supercruises so it can be an ASF like the F-22. not trying to prove that the concorde doesn't need afterburners
 
are we ready to have a different conversation devoid of your silly rules that not even the Rafale meets?

Are we ready to deal with actual engineering?

this is just circle talk.

Just say you don't get it.

again you are redefining supercruise. did the 1990 prototype carry a useful combat load? have full avioinics?
you keep trying to confuse and muddle definintions.

Why would it carry payload in its first flight? Is this your level of argument?

youre attempting to change history again. Remember that the ATF program set the requirements and standards for Supercruise in the 1980s. In the early 1990s Northrop and Lockeed competed with the YF-23 and YF-22. the Standard was set before the downselect contract was ever awarded.
you are once again trying to call basic fact "marketing" to say nothing of the fact that the standard is still currently in use with the USAF. your trying to say LM invented the standard as marketing. the Standard was set before LM was even awarded the attempt to win ATF.

Supercruise was defined as mach 1+ long before the existence of ATF.

very good visiting wikipedia!
we have already covered this several times already.
by your own words:
official ATF requirements= marketing
Supercruise as written in a dassault sales brochure=supercruise.
OK!

No, we haven't. You don't even know what supercruise is.

As I said, ask around.
 
is it a simple mind that confuses an airliner for a warplane?

So how's Concorde performing this magic supercruise that the Rafale can but F-22 cannot?

I'm saying you changed the subject by bringing in an airliner. what is the "useful combat load" of the concorde? which military air force flew it?
this is desperate. pointing to the Concorde as an exception proves the rule BTW.

Ah, so different rules of physics for Concorde?

lots of people on this very forum including picdel and others are telling you that you have gone off the reservation. you have literally had to resort to the concorde an not only that you have once again focused on a detail of the arguement rather than the original subject:
remember, you are attempting to prove to us that the Rafale supercruises so it can be an ASF like the F-22. not trying to prove that the concorde doesn't need afterburners

If Rafale is multirole, what is its primary design based on?

If Rafale can perform better than the F-15C at AS roles and better than the SH at strike, what role should we classify it as? Or should we put it in a whole new category? This is such a simple question.
 
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Official USAF website:
Primary function: air dominance, multi-role fighter

Official AFA website:
The F-22 is a stealthy, penetrating, air dominance, and multirole fighter built for day, night, and adverse weather, full-spectrum operations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Rafale has the kinematics of an ASF as it was designed to kill Su-27 just like EF & F-22. But to fulfil deck-based role DA had to make its nose-cone smaller than usual. That small radar size is its only drawback as an ASF.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Official USAF website:
Primary function: air dominance, multi-role fighter

Official AFA website:
The F-22 is a stealthy, penetrating, air dominance, and multirole fighter built for day, night, and adverse weather, full-spectrum operations.
That's why they added the suffix A. So it became F-22A. A is for attack.
 
So how's Concorde performing this magic supercruise that the Rafale can but F-22 cannot?
We are talking about warplanes, you literally brought in a competely different subject to "prove" something that does not matter.

as I said. if somone chooses to "Supercruise" without using the afterburner to punch through the barrier, they can choose to do that. its just inefficient and stupid and so most fighters (including the French who are not stupid) will do that way.

you keep insisting to us that the Rafale does it the stupid way because you consider it a badge of honor?

While a lot of people are paid by Dassault to promote their products I think you may be the first person that Dassault would pay to NOT talk about their products...

Ah, so different rules of physics for Concorde?
its crazy how I can write the same thing 4 times and you still can't figure it out.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Official USAF website:
Primary function: air dominance, multi-role fighter

Official AFA website:
The F-22 is a stealthy, penetrating, air dominance, and multirole fighter built for day, night, and adverse weather, full-spectrum operations.
???

If Rafale is multirole, what is its primary design based on?

If Rafale can perform better than the F-15C at AS roles and better than the SH at strike, what role should we classify it as? Or should we put it in a whole new category? This is such a simple question.
do you actually want to have a conversation instead of trying to bring airliners into the equation to prove a misconception you internalized?

serious question. What happened was it would be very interesting and enlightening to discuss the various attributes of fighters and their capability in the Air Superiority mission.

you didn't want to do that though, you made a bunch of rules (anything else was suicide, you said it twice) and then realized the Rafale couldn't meet them

If Rafale can perform better than the F-15C at AS roles

this is exactly my point. The F-35 isn't AS, yet it can easily kill and beat an F-15C which is an ASF. So what does that mean? the F-35 is better than an ASF but not an ASF? what does that mean?
you dismissed the whole thing by making arbitrary standards for an ASF and then figured out the Rafale couldn't meet them. LOL

I know you can count 2 can't you?
so here it is once again:
There is USAF F-22 supercruise that has a highly specific defintion
And there there is the other kind of "supercruise" which is the "break the soundbarrier with some AAMS" type that is not operationally useful.
since the F-35 and the Rafale fall into the "not F-22" category maybe its time to talk about how everyone compares instead of you trying to invent reasons why the Rafale is somehow supercruising like the F-22 so you can define it as an "ASF" that no one else, not even the manufacturer defines it as.
 
Rafale has the kinematics of an ASF as it was designed to kill Su-27 just like EF & F-22. But to fulfil deck-based role DA had to make its nose-cone smaller than usual. That small radar size is its only drawback as an ASF.

That's why they added the suffix A. So it became F-22A. A is for attack.
very breifly (You can still find it online in some places) the F-22 was classified in the US navy style of F/A-22. they changed it back pretty quickly. The idea of the change was to try and make the F-22 more marketable to American government because the end of the cold war meant there were not really any airplane to shoot down so F-22 must also show ability to bomb.
No one officially describes Rafale as an ASF, that would be considered a "downgrade" as an ASF is easier to create than what Dassault had to do with the Rafale. Treating a sophisticated machine as if it was a hammer. Granted yes, everything can be hammer if you try. but that is not what is designed to be, and too much use a "hammer" in this case deciding to max out the engines to "supercruise" is not healthy for the aircraft and long term prospects of the cost and readiness of the fleet. a Rafale can pull 11Gs but that does not mean that such a thing should be done routinely, its bad for the lifespan of the aircraft. there is a difference between maximum specifications and practicality. F-22s will fly in supercruise as a matter of daily operations. Rafales should not, and neither should any other of the "not F-22s" with the exceptions of MiG-31 but I admit I don't know enough about MiG-31 to comment more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
We are talking about warplanes, you literally brought in a competely different subject to "prove" something that does not matter.

as I said. if somone chooses to "Supercruise" without using the afterburner to punch through the barrier, they can choose to do that. its just inefficient and stupid and so most fighters (including the French who are not stupid) will do that way.

you keep insisting to us that the Rafale does it the stupid way because you consider it a badge of honor?

While a lot of people are paid by Dassault to promote their products I think you may be the first person that Dassault would pay to NOT talk about their products...


its crazy how I can write the same thing 4 times and you still can't figure it out.

Dunno, you tell me. Is Concorde's supercruise determined by physics? Why is it, as you believe, the F-22's supercruise significantly inferior to Concorde's?


F-22 isn't an ASF too, if the USAF is to be believed.

do you actually want to have a conversation instead of trying to bring airliners into the equation to prove a misconception you internalized?

serious question. What happened was it would be very interesting and enlightening to discuss the various attributes of fighters and their capability in the Air Superiority mission.

you didn't want to do that though, you made a bunch of rules (anything else was suicide, you said it twice) and then realized the Rafale couldn't meet them

I point out all the qualities of the Rafale's performance to determine it is an ASF. You neither understand it nor are you trying to understand it.

If the Rafale is superior to the F-15 in its ASF role, then why is it not an ASF?

this is exactly my point. The F-35 isn't AS, yet it can easily kill and beat an F-15C which is an ASF. So what does that mean? the F-35 is better than an ASF but not an ASF? what does that mean?
you dismissed the whole thing by making arbitrary standards for an ASF and then figured out the Rafale couldn't meet them. LOL

That means the F-15 sucks now. Even the SH can deliver this result.

A Growler killed the F-35, does that make the Growler superior to the F-35?

I don't think you are unable to relate complex things with each other due to your ignorance.

As I said, ask around. You refuse to get schooled here, then try it with people you trust elsewhere. This is pretty much the most logical course of action for you. Why waste time with this big circle-jerk when you can get educated elsewhere? And then, come back and pick it up?

I know you can count 2 can't you?
so here it is once again:
There is USAF F-22 supercruise that has a highly specific defintion
And there there is the other kind of "supercruise" which is the "break the soundbarrier with some AAMS" type that is not operationally useful.
since the F-35 and the Rafale fall into the "not F-22" category maybe its time to talk about how everyone compares instead of you trying to invent reasons why the Rafale is somehow supercruising like the F-22 so you can define it as an "ASF" that no one else, not even the manufacturer defines it as.

So what makes Concorde and Rafale's supercruise different from the F-22's? If you can't answer, then ask around. It's such a simple task.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Are we ready to deal with actual engineering?
like how the Rafale was engineered from the start to be omnirole? that it has never in its history ever been described as "air superiority, multi-role" like you are insisting?
F-22 isn't an ASF too, if the USAF is to be believed.
True its techinically air dominance. ITs still described in such a way. Rafale has never had any such description.

Why would it carry payload in its first flight?

it wouldn't and since we are talking about a "USEFUL COMBAT LOAD" its immaterial. you continue to bring things into the arguement that are not on the subject

Supercruise was defined as mach 1+ long before the existence of ATF.
remember that we are talking about the context of Supercruise in relation to a fighter being an ASF. if you are going to bring the F-22 into the debate, the F-22 has a different definition than anyone else. this is important because only the F-22 definition was being applied to the F-35 while the Rafale was allowed to get away with its own definition and you considered this "definitive proof" once that was spoiled you started changing the subject in an attempt to "win"
I'm not upset at all because this is a common tactic that women employ and I am familiar with the tactics you are employing. knock yourself out :)

9u8snn.jpg


You need to make up your mind.

If the Rafale is superior to the F-15 in its ASF role, then why is it not an ASF?
this is what I asked with the F-35 and you brought up supercruise and general hostage. General Hostage said the F-35 is no ASF, but General hostage along with Dassault would tell you that Rafale is not ASF

Hostage would take it one step further and tell you that the Rafale can't supercruise and thus by the USAF standard is incapable of fulfilling such a role.

you insist that not using the USAF standard means Rafale can supercruise, but by such a definition so can the F-35, and you even saw this yourself and commented.

So the USAF version of supercruise should be equally applied or equally disqualifying. what you are doing is using the USAF version to disqualify the F-35, and the Dassault version (which the F-35 could do) in order to qualify the Rafale.

in summary: the F-35 and Rafale are both not ASF or ASF depending on what you decide to count, however they should be counted the same either way you choose.

F-35 beat F-15 = means nothing ,not ASF
Rafale beats F-15 = OMG Rafale is ASF!!

Rather than look at what the Rafale/F-35 "are" or "are not"

why not look at what they can DO or NOT DO and then from there make a kind of classification?

you dismiss the F-35 on the first concept but promote the Rafale on the second concept. What I was saying all along was that the second concept is what we should be looking at.

especially as we look at Air superiority as a MISSION and not as an identity
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Shan
Operation Sindoor: Story, success, takeaways

The Pakistani site went on to say, “The concept has recently gained currency with the Indian strategic community.”

India’s stunning military project, Operation Sindoor, to punish the terrorist Pakistan was planned and executed with admirable precision and confidence by the defence forces in just two weeks. But the capability to accomplish this grand project in weeks was developed over years, painstakingly, against all odds and opposition by internal and external designs.

The transformation of the defence infrastructure to the non-contact war model undertaken by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, was the foundation for the spectacular Op Sindoor, as compared to the earlier Uri surgical strike and the Balakot aerial attack based on the traditional war model.

Modi realised that the old model would not work in future. That it would not enable deep strikes into Pakistan, without which India would not be able to destroy terror outfits at their source, impelled Modi to transform the war model to non-contact warfare, the outcome of which was Op Sindoor and its breathtaking success.

Despite all the military infra and preparations, Op Sindoor could not have been undertaken with the eventual ease without a cluster of supportive factors that dramatically transformed the geopolitical, economic and strategic ecosystem in India’s favour under Modi’s 10-year rule. It was also aided by the relative decline of Pakistan in the same period.

Non-contact warfare​

What is non-contact warfare and how Modi put India on its ladder? This is what the Pakistan Defence website had to say [8.7.2020] about how India was climbing on to non-contact warfare. It described the induction of long range missiles, high precision smart weapons, unmanned systems, robots and satellites primarily driven by technology and aimed at achieving a quick, decisive victory by remote delivery of destructive kinetic energy as “Non-Contact Warfare”. The Pakistani site went on to say, “The concept has recently gained currency with the Indian strategic community.” It added,

“The Balakot strikes and earlier fake surgical strike claims (by India) point to its strong desire for gaining psychological ascendancy without suffering casualties, simultaneously avoiding escalation of violence. As recently as January 2015, the Indian Army Chief reiterated that Non-Contact Warfare is “important” and is a “major consideration” in the planned restructuring of the Indian Army.” In its post in 2020, the Pakistan website cited to the Indian Army chief’s reference to non-contact warfare in 2015 as “recently”!

Op Sindoor – non-contact war model​

The pillars of the Op Sindoor were five advanced supertech non-contact war equipment that avoided ground forces or traditional airstrikes. One, Rafale aircraft, two, SCALP missiles, three, HAMMER missiles, four, Kamikaze loitering drones developed with Israeli aid, and five, the deadly BrahMos missiles. All of them are non-contact and autonomous; once fired, they home in on to the target on their own.

The Indian Air Force deployed Rafale fighter jets to execute Op Sindoor. India got cutting-edge weapons systems, both SCALP and HAMMER, mounted on its Rafales. These missile combinations enabled deep strikes and precision targeting. SCALP can move stealthily and hit distant, fortified targets like bunkers and command centres 500 km away. The HAMMER is an air-to-ground weapon. It is ideal for hitting even mobile targets.

In Op Sindoor, HAMMER missiles supported the SCALP. The Kamikaze drones are ‘do or die’ drones that are operated by remote human control. And finally the deadly BrahMos missile, fitted with indigenous seeker instrument that guides it to its target, which smashed the terror mansions in Op Sindoor. The most critical air defence equipment which smashed the Pakistani drone and missile attacks from May 7 to 9 night after the deep Indian strike on the intervening night of May 6-7, was the Russian S-400 anti-missile defence system.

Non-contact infra – Modi plan​

Modi acquired Rafale and HAMMER missiles from France, SCALP missile from England, Heron Mk2 UAVs and technology for HAROP drones from Israel, S-400 missile interceptors from Russia, AH-64 Apache attack helicopters, and AGM-114 Hellfire missiles from the US. The Modi government also secretly purchased various other technologies and equipment.

The two items that Modi purchased against all odds and opposition were the Rafale fighters and the Russian S-400 missile defence system. Without the Rafale fighter jets, non-contact war under Op Sindoor would have been unthinkable. Without the Russian S-400s, India could not have thwarted the waves after waves of Pakistani drones and missiles that targeted the Indian defence and air installations on May 7, 8 and 9 particularly. The Pakistani missiles were shot down like birds in the sky.

Modi defied the US, took on Rahul’s Congress​

Modi faced heavy opposition for buying the two major defence assets — Rafale and S-400 — which only made Op Sindoor and its aftermath a spectacular success. In what appeared to be a conspiracy against the nation, the Congress vigorously opposed the purchase of the Rafale jets and, alleging corruption, tried to stop it. Fortunately the Supreme Court intervened, allowing the Rafale deal. As the 2019 polls were approaching, Modi took the highest political risk to buy the Rafales, which today saved India. Without Rafales, our defence forces would not have been able to fire autonomous drones and missiles to target and destroy terrorist camps 250 km away, without crossing the border, which is the very essence of non-contact warfare.

If Rahul was bent upon stopping the Rafale, the US was hell-bent on stopping India from buying the S-400 from Russia. It had threatened to impose technological sanctions on India if it went ahead with the S-400 deal with Russia. But Modi did not buckle under the threat of his friend Trump and went ahead to buy the S-400s in 2018. It is the S-400s that stopped and destroyed the hundreds of Pakistani missiles and drones fired into our territory after the tri-force attacked nine terror camps. Had Modi buckled under Congress pressure before elections and not gone ahead with buying Rafale fighter jets, and had he succumbed to Trump’s threat and cancelled the order to buy S-400 anti-missile systems, India could never have thought of Op Sindoor.

Modi’s Atmanirbharta yielded Kamikaze drones​

The story is not complete without complimenting Modi for his efforts to indigenise defence manufacturing under his ambitious Atmanirbharta agenda. Modi did not stop at importing the best equipment. He also encouraged the development of technologies within the country. Our country, which produced 32% of our needs in 2014, now produces 88% of them. A word about the Kamikaze drones.

The Israeli tech was indigenised as swadeshi Kamikaze drones and inducted into the defence forces in April last year ahead of India’s 78th Independence day. The National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) manufactured the indigenous Kamikaze drone, which was a significant milestone in India’s defence tech. These “do-and-die” unmanned aerial vehicles, designed with home-built engines, can fly up to 1,000 km and loiter over target areas for up to nine hours. The swadeshi Kamikaze drones made their debut in Op Sindoor.

Geopolitical rise of Modi, India​

Mere military preparation would not have enabled India to cross the borders and hit Pakistan. When Modi took over as prime minister, he had to overcome negative perceptions about him spread with venom by his detractors in India with the active support of their liberal woke associates outside. He vowed to take on the liberal world that virtually hated him.

Anyone facing such adverse opinion would have sought a global PR agency at high cost to soften the rigour of the adversity. But he decided to correct the wrong impressions about him by his own efforts and did it in the most unconventional way. He undertook the most extensive travel by any leader anywhere. He stormed 73 countries in 10 years. He went to Israel, India’s outcaste for seven decades, never visited by any Indian prime minister. Today it is India’s closest ally.

He was the first PM to visit Australia after Indira Gandhi. It is now a great ally of India to deal with the West. As of May 2025, he has visited 41 countries once. 14 countries twice. The UK, Saudi Arabia included, eight countries thrice. Sri Lanka four times. Three countries, including China, five times. Germany six times. Japan, Russia, UAE seven times. France eight times and the US 10 times. These were not diplomatic picnics. He built powerful and personal relations with all nations.

His strenuous and personal outreach made him familiar with most nations, and friendly to the most influential leaders and most distant nations. Tall world leaders became his fans. A few examples. Former Israeli prime minister Bennett said Modi was the most popular person in Israel. US President Trump said Modi is a fantastic person, magnificent and a total killer. Trump’s predecessor Joe Biden said that he “felt like taking Modi’s autograph”. Russian President Putin said, “Modi is a wise man.

He cannot be intimidated to make decisions. I am even surprised at his tough position to defend India’s national interest.” Italian Prime Minister Georgia Meloni said, “Modi is the most loved leader in the world.” Australian Prime Minister Albanese called him “boss”. The then British Prime Minister Boris Johnson wrote in his book, Unleashed, that Modi is a change-maker, recalling how he sensed a curious astral energy during their first meeting.

Modi was conferred the highest civilian awards by 21 countries, including Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait (all Muslim nations), USA, France, Russia and Greece. No other world leader was honoured by such a large number of countries. From 2019, he became the most admired leader of the world quarter after quarter in the US Morning Consult survey with an approval rating of over 70%.

As Modi was straining every nerve to build India’s image by his extensive foreign travels, the Congress party began deriding him as a non-resident prime minister. In contrast, Rahul Gandhi secretly travelled abroad 247 times in four years. Even his party did not know where he was and whether he was in India.

Modi’s rise and India’s rise were complementary to one another. His visits and the fame he earned fetched India technology, trade investment and military equipment not easily available without his unprecedented outreach.

His geopolitical rise as a global leader is a factor that enabled India to tower over Pakistan, which was dwarfed by Modi and India’s rise. When the stealthy Balakot aerial attack was launched under Modi’s watch as PM, there was muted support to open opposition. This time around, he openly declared Op Sindoor and brutally attacked Pakistan after crossing the border.

But no Muslim country except Turkey supported Pakistan. Qatar, which had aligned with Pakistan so far, supported India this time.

India could not have undertaken Op Sindoor without global support.

India’s rise from Fragile 5 to Super 4. Pak 10 steps below​

India’s rise during Modi’s rule dwarfing Pakistan to insignificance has also shifted the global ecosystem in its favour. When Modi assumed office, India was listed among the Fragile 5 economies of the world. Today, it is among the top four economies of the world with the highest growth rate. India’s GDP was $3.88 trillion in 2024.

Pakistan lags behind at $0.37 trillion — 10 steps below India. India doubled its GDP during Modi’s rule. Pakistan, in prolonged macroeconomic crisis, is nowhere near. In 2024, India recorded 8.2% growth — thrice as much as Pakistan’s 2.4%. Over the last decade, India’s per capita GDP surged by 74%, while Pakistan’s remained muted. India’s forex reserve is $676 billion; Pakistan’s is just $9 billion. India is the fastest growing economy.

In contrast, Pakistan has been at the IMF doorsteps over 20 times since 1980 for rescue. The recent $7 billion IMF bailout of Pakistan is one of the largest in its history. These bailouts, meant for economic stability, have often been used to fund its military that is aligned with terror.

These comparative numbers did also matter in the positive attitude of different nations to India in Op Sindoor.

Op Sindoor – the key takeaways​

Op Sindoor is a dramatic turn which transformed India into a rule-setter in the Indo-Pakistan interface. There are several key takeaways. One, India has avenged the Pahalgam carnage by massive missile strikes on nine terror camps, which Pakistan could not block and had to admit unlike in the past when it was always in denial. Two, Pakistan, which started the war after India’s attack on terror, could not penetrate the country’s air defence system with its missiles.

Three, Indian forces destroyed Pakistan’s air defence systems besides attacking and damaging its air bases with impunity. Four, when the thoroughly beaten Pakistan’s nuke threat was laughed away by India, it had to beg through its Director General of Military Operations for a ceasefire. Five, India openly declared that in the event of a future terror strike, it will regard it as a declaration of war and pursue the terror outfits inside Pakistan.

Six, by its military commanders attending the funeral of the globally wanted terrorists and paying homage to them, Pakistan has provided vital evidence of the link between its army and terror. Seven, the prime minister in his address to the nation told Pakistan and the world that ‘terror and talk’, ‘trade and talk’ cannot go together. Eight, the PM told them that any talk with Pakistan will be only about PoK.

Nine, he also declared that blood and water cannot flow together, clearly saying that Indus water flow is linked to Pakistan giving up terror. Ten, Modi warned Pakistan that unless it gave up terror it would be destroyed by terror. And lastly, Modi said that India will not tolerate nuclear blackmail, indicating that its no first use option may be reviewed.

To conclude, Op Sindoor resets the India-Pakistan engagement — in war or in peace.
 
like how the Rafale was engineered from the start to be omnirole? that it has never in its history ever been described as "air superiority, multi-role" like you are insisting?

True its techinically air dominance. ITs still described in such a way. Rafale has never had any such description.

The Rafale jets will give the IAF superior air dominance capability," the former IAF chief told PTI.

remember that we are talking about the context of Supercruise in relation to a fighter being an ASF. if you are going to bring the F-22 into the debate, the F-22 has a different definition than anyone else. this is important because only the F-22 definition was being applied to the F-35 while the Rafale was allowed to get away with its own definition and you considered this "definitive proof" once that was spoiled you started changing the subject in an attempt to "win"
I'm not upset at all because this is a common tactic that women employ and I am familiar with the tactics you are employing. knock yourself out :)

What is the difference between Concorde's supercruise without AB and your supposed F-22 supercruise with AB?

Looks like I gotta spell it out...

9u8snn.jpg


You need to make up your mind.

Why not both?

To be an ASF in the modern world, you need to be able to beat the F-15C's kinematics and be able to kill the F-15C with your kinematics and avionics. What's wrong with that? Gotta have both. And Rafale can do both.

this is what I asked with the F-35 and you brought up supercruise and general hostage. General Hostage said the F-35 is no ASF, but General hostage along with Dassault would tell you that Rafale is not ASF

Hostage would take it one step further and tell you that the Rafale can't supercruise and thus by the USAF standard is incapable of fulfilling such a role.

What's Hostage got to do with this? He doesn't consider F-35 to be an ASF, that's already been established. No supersonic performance, no high altitude performance...

you insist that not using the USAF standard means Rafale can supercruise, but by such a definition so can the F-35, and you even saw this yourself and commented.

No, even the guy who claimed the F-35 can supercruise said it's not supercruise.

So the USAF version of supercruise should be equally applied or equally disqualifying. what you are doing is using the USAF version to disqualify the F-35, and the Dassault version (which the F-35 could do) in order to qualify the Rafale.

The F-22 supercruises without AB. The F-35 uses AB and then turns it off. Rafale supercruises without AB. Concorde supercruises without AB, even that's established. So I don't see the confusion here.

in summary: the F-35 and Rafale are both not ASF or ASF depending on what you decide to count, however they should be counted the same either way you choose.

F-35 is not ASF, but Rafale is. It has supersonic performance, supercruise, and high altitude capabilities.

F-35 beat F-15 = means nothing ,not ASF
Rafale beats F-15 = OMG Rafale is ASF!!

And if Growler beats the F-22? Does that make Growler an ASF? Where's the kinematics?

Rather than look at what the Rafale/F-35 "are" or "are not"

why not look at what they can DO or NOT DO and then from there make a kind of classification?

you dismiss the F-35 on the first concept but promote the Rafale on the second concept. What I was saying all along was that the second concept is what we should be looking at.

especially as we look at Air superiority as a MISSION and not as an identity

Using avionics to kill and using kinematics and avionics to kill is the real difference between the F-35 and Rafale resply in the AS role.

What makes Rafale ASF is it actually flies better than the F-15 and combines that with some of F-35's avionics while doing it. And it flies better than the SH in the strike role and combines that with some of the F-35's avionics too. And omnirole means it can do both functions simultaneously.

The F-22, NGAD, and Rafale are AS designs with secondary strike capabilities. That's reality. And all three can supercruise like the Concorde.

You are still not ready to believe this, as I said, ask around and get schooled.
 
The Rafale jets will give the IAF superior air dominance capability," the former IAF chief told PTI.



What is the difference between Concorde's supercruise without AB and your supposed F-22 supercruise with AB?

Looks like I gotta spell it out...



Why not both?

To be an ASF in the modern world, you need to be able to beat the F-15C's kinematics and be able to kill the F-15C with your kinematics and avionics. What's wrong with that? Gotta have both. And Rafale can do both.



What's Hostage got to do with this? He doesn't consider F-35 to be an ASF, that's already been established. No supersonic performance, no high altitude performance...



No, even the guy who claimed the F-35 can supercruise said it's not supercruise.



The F-22 supercruises without AB. The F-35 uses AB and then turns it off. Rafale supercruises without AB. Concorde supercruises without AB, even that's established. So I don't see the confusion here.



F-35 is not ASF, but Rafale is. It has supersonic performance, supercruise, and high altitude capabilities.



And if Growler beats the F-22? Does that make Growler an ASF? Where's the kinematics?



Using avionics to kill and using kinematics and avionics to kill is the real difference between the F-35 and Rafale resply in the AS role.

What makes Rafale ASF is it actually flies better than the F-15 and combines that with some of F-35's avionics while doing it. And it flies better than the SH in the strike role and combines that with some of the F-35's avionics too. And omnirole means it can do both functions simultaneously.

The F-22, NGAD, and Rafale are AS designs with secondary strike capabilities. That's reality. And all three can supercruise like the Concorde.

You are still not ready to believe this, as I said, ask around and get schooled.
And General "Hawk" says the F-35 will give the USAF and USN air superiority. :rolleyes:


Btw a reminder once again the mighty ASF Rafale is claim to be 0-3 in air combat but definitely 0-1.
 
The Rafale jets will give the IAF superior air dominance capability," the former IAF chief told PTI.
if you are going to count this there are scores of generals all over who say the F-35 is the best airplane in the world, so its cool.

To be an ASF in the modern world, you need to be able to beat the F-15C's kinematics and be able to kill the F-15C with your kinematics and avionics.
That is not what you claimed earlier...
I wonder what changed...

What's Hostage got to do with this? He doesn't consider F-35 to be an ASF, that's already been established. No supersonic performance, no high altitude performance..

Because Hostage would say the same thing about the Rafale, but you omit that part and claim the opposite. The Rafale is not an F-22 either and that was Hostage's measure.

No, even the guy who claimed the F-35 can supercruise said it's not supercruise.
by USAF standard= not supercruise

By "above mach 1" with some weapons-- yes F-35 can do that. remember tThere is no qualification on the time, duration, distance etc of the "dassault supercruiser" we just know above mach 1. 4 AAMs dry thrust. anyone can do that, an F-16 can do that, a Gripen can do that.
Remember in the quote O'brien mentions the F-35 going above mach 1 helps with the BOMBS meaning it is Dassault supercruising with thousands of kilos of bombs.
so now you are going to have to tell us how the F-35 can supercruise just like the Rafale in the same parameters, but it doesn't count when the F-35 does it. but it totally counts when the Rafale does the same thing.

"No the F-35 can't do it because I don't like it!!" is not an argument.

The F-22 supercruises without AB. The F-35 uses AB and then turns it off. Rafale supercruises without AB. Concorde supercruises without AB, even that's established. So I don't see the confusion here.
it really doesn't matter. no one cares if you use the AB to punch through the barrier except for weirdos on Indian defense forums who want to impress French men and think they are secretly smart. heavy emphasis on the secret part because its certainly well hidden.

F-35 is not ASF, but Rafale is. It has supersonic performance, supercruise, and high altitude capabilities.
by the same measure the F-35 is ASF. You continue to play a game where the F-35 does the same thing but you say "No because F-35! and Yes because I love Rafale!!"

Using avionics to kill and using kinematics and avionics to kill is the real difference between the F-35 and Rafale resply in the AS role.
a kill is a kill. the point is effectiveness. this is why I called into question your entire framework.

The F-22, NGAD, and Rafale are AS designs with secondary strike capabilities. That's reality.
The Rafale was never DESIGNED as an AS, this is confirmed directly by the manufacturer. they would have no idea why you would make such a claim and would assume you are confused

And all three can supercruise like the Concorde.
So unarmed?

The Rafale can't even supercruise like an F-22. that is the whole point, and "ask around" I'm not the only here on this thread explaining it.
"You need to ask around and learn a thing" says person being corrected by everyone on the thread...

we aren't even sure if the Rafale is the best fighter in the IAF, let alone the silly things you are trying to claim.

You are still not ready to believe this, as I said, ask around and get schooled.
you still seem to be the only one persisting, even picdel has politely corrected you...
And General "Hawk" says the F-35 will give the USAF and USN air superiority. :rolleyes:

Yes, except it won't.

Bothered to look up the F-55?

ah the double standard. General's are credible authorities until one of them says something Randomradio doesn't want to hear...