Agni & Prithvi Ballistic Missiles : News & Discussions

Kshithij Sharma

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Army readies for Agni-I user trial

After the success of Inter-continental range Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V pre-induction test, Indian Army is reportedly readying for a fresh user trial of its shorter range Agni-I this month. The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will carry out the test from a defence base off Odisha coast.

Agni-I is the first missile in the country’s most ambitious Agni series designed and developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The nuke-capable missile can destroy targets up to 700 km away.

Sources said as the missile has already been inducted in the Army, this trial will be from its Limited Stock Production (LSP) series for which one missile system will be randomly selected from a bunch of missiles and put to test.

“The test is aimed at reconfirming the technical parameters set for the user (Army) and establishing the weapon system’s reliability of demonstrating its robustness. There has been considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvrability,” said a defence official.

Agni-I is a short-range and surface-to-surface ballistic missile capable of delivering nuclear warhead. Compared it its longer-range cousins, its height is just 15 metres and it is powered by both solid and liquid propellants, which imparts it a speed of 2.5 km per second.

The missile was first test-fired on January 25, 2002 and since then several trails have been conducted. It is designed to bridge the gap between indigenously built short-range Prithvi and medium range Agni-II that has a range of more than 2,000 km. Both the weapon system have already deployed in the Army.
Agni-I can be launched from both road and rail mobile launchers. The missile weighs around 12 tonnes and can carry both conventional and nuclear payload of about 1000 kg. Weighing less but having the same thrust, the missile has added acceleration.

The DRDO had launched the Agni project in 1983 as part of the country’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme and the first test flight of the Agni series was conducted on May 22, 1989 when the 2000-km range Agni-II was test-fired.
 
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lcafanboy

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Army readies for Agni-I user trial

After the success of Inter-continental range Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V pre-induction test, Indian Army is reportedly readying for a fresh user trial of its shorter range Agni-I this month. The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will carry out the test from a defence base off Odisha coast.

Agni-I is the first missile in the country’s most ambitious Agni series designed and developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The nuke-capable missile can destroy targets up to 700 km away.

Sources said as the missile has already been inducted in the Army, this trial will be from its Limited Stock Production (LSP) series for which one missile system will be randomly selected from a bunch of missiles and put to test.

“The test is aimed at reconfirming the technical parameters set for the user (Army) and establishing the weapon system’s reliability of demonstrating its robustness. There has been considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvrability,” said a defence official.

Agni-I is a short-range and surface-to-surface ballistic missile capable of delivering nuclear warhead. Compared it its longer-range cousins, its height is just 15 metres and it is powered by both solid and liquid propellants, which imparts it a speed of 2.5 km per second.

The missile was first test-fired on January 25, 2002 and since then several trails have been conducted. It is designed to bridge the gap between indigenously built short-range Prithvi and medium range Agni-II that has a range of more than 2,000 km. Both the weapon system have already deployed in the Army.
Agni-I can be launched from both road and rail mobile launchers. The missile weighs around 12 tonnes and can carry both conventional and nuclear payload of about 1000 kg. Weighing less but having the same thrust, the missile has added acceleration.

The DRDO had launched the Agni project in 1983 as part of the country’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme and the first test flight of the Agni series was conducted on May 22, 1989 when the 2000-km range Agni-II was test-fired.
Timing of tests is interesting. LOC heated up Agni 5 tested to tame Lizard China and now Agni 1 a clear message to po rkies what is coming their way.......:)
 

safriz

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Why Agni-5 is not MIRV.


DT337RMXkAADzdL[1].jpg
 

Kshithij Sharma

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Why Agni-5 is not MIRV.


View attachment 1455
How do you expect to have a MIRV in a missile whose maximum range is 2000km? MIRV requires much higher altitude for separation. I haven't heard of MIRV in medium range ballistic missile.

Agni 5 has much thicker diameter to hold 3 warheads even after what you mentioned as 3rd stage. So, even after that 3 MIRV warhead is possible. Agni is a thick missile which is thicker than the height of an average person
 

safriz

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How do you expect to have a MIRV in a missile whose maximum range is 2000km? MIRV requires much higher altitude for separation. I haven't heard of MIRV in medium range ballistic missile.

Agni 5 has much thicker diameter to hold 3 warheads even after what you mentioned as 3rd stage. So, even after that 3 MIRV warhead is possible. Agni is a thick missile which is thicker than the height of an average person
Hi,
Yes 2 meter wide at the top of second stage, then sits the third stage which tapers and at the top of third stage the missile is onlt 1.3 meters wide. There sits just one Warhead.
Either the third stage will have to be redesigned to maintain diameter or second stage elongated. In either case it will become a new missile and wont remain A-5 anymore.
C0mSOopXcAEk8rM[1].jpg
 
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safriz

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Same as Agni-3 became Agni-5 due to addition of third stage. Agni-5 will become Agni-6 when they design a third stage which remains 2 meter wide instead of tapering away to 1.3 meters.
C393nekXAAEktmc[1].jpg
 

Kshithij Sharma

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Hi,
Yes 2 meter wide at the top of second stage, then sits the third stage which tapers and at the top of third stage the missile is onlt 1.3 meters wide. There sits just one Warhead.
Either the third stage will have to be redesigned to maintain diameter or second stage elongated. In either case it will become a new missile and wont remain A-5 anymore.
View attachment 1456
Agni 5 is 0.5 metres taller than Agni 3. Also, a third stage is added to give more range with accuracy.

There is an extra 0.5 metre which could have been used for third stage and there is no reason to believe that the tapered part is the third stage. Also, 1.3 metres is over 4 feet. Do you think a warhead is that thick? Even with tapering, 3 MIRV is possible. So, why are you assuming this in the first place? Look at French ICBM: M45 (missile) - Wikipedia . It has 6 MIRV with diameter of just 1.9m.
 
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safriz

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Agni 5 is 0.5 metres taller than Agni 3. Also, a third stage is added to give more range with accuracy.

There is an extra 0.5 metre which could have been used for third stage and there is no reason to believe that the tapered part is the third stage. Also, 1.3 metres is over 4 feet. Do you think a warhead is that thick? Even with tapering, 3 MIRV is possible. So, why are you assuming this in the first place? Look at French ICBM: M45 (missile) - Wikipedia . It has 6 MIRV with diameter of just 1.9m.
I have studied Indian missiles more than most Indians. So..do you want me to leave the discussion here and let you beleive what you want, or you want me to present further evidence that there is a third stage on the tapered part of Agni-5? :D
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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I have studied Indian missiles more than most Indians. So..do you want me to leave the discussion here and let you beleive what you want, or you want me to present further evidence that there is a third stage on the tapered part of Agni-5? :D
Go ahead and give your evidence. i am waiting
 

Vicky

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Agni 5 is 0.5 metres taller than Agni 3. Also, a third stage is added to give more range with accuracy.

There is an extra 0.5 metre which could have been used for third stage and there is no reason to believe that the tapered part is the third stage. Also, 1.3 metres is over 4 feet. Do you think a warhead is that thick? Even with tapering, 3 MIRV is possible. So, why are you assuming this in the first place? Look at French ICBM: M45 (missile) - Wikipedia . It has 6 MIRV with diameter of just 1.9m.

Agni 5 is not MIRV nor it is designed for such. Mainly it has been designed and tested for validating the technology for long range attacks. An ICBM is no joke.

Agni 6, however has been planned as a SLBM based MIRV. It will have an K name. Most probably K5. It is supposed to be tested this year but details on this programme is very sketchy and rightfully so
 

Vicky

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Same as Agni-3 became Agni-5 due to addition of third stage. Agni-5 will become Agni-6 when they design a third stage which remains 2 meter wide instead of tapering away to 1.3 meters.
View attachment 1457

Introducing an third stage over an existing second stage doesnt decrease payload. When you are in space you need to travel only a short more distance to cover the range. Course you know that. If we had to increase range we would have increased the second stage of A3 and called it A5. But we added an extra stage to make sure it travels and carries more payloads than earlier series. Why would Army or any force will accept a missile that carries the same payload as a medium sized missile?

The way I see it, if India were to attack China, it is MAD. And we have to make sure each and every missile carries the maximum destructible warhead. 50 tonnes missile can carry.

One thing I agree is, it is definitely not MIRV.
 

Ashwin

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Why Agni-5 is not MIRV.
First of all, No official source said it is MIRV. We don't wake up one morning and test missile just to call it MIRV. Our civil society is not that gullible like our neighbors.

I have studied Indian missiles more than most Indians
Ok, expert. Can you prove how Ababeel is MIRV? (Not with photoshop)
 

Kshithij Sharma

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Agni 5 is not MIRV nor it is designed for such. Mainly it has been designed and tested for validating the technology for long range attacks. An ICBM is no joke.

Agni 6, however has been planned as a SLBM based MIRV. It will have an K name. Most probably K5. It is supposed to be tested this year but details on this programme is very sketchy and rightfully so
Why is it not MIRV? What is the requirements to be a MIRV? The possibility of MIRV occurs when the flight altitude is high enough that the thir stage can simply eject out warheads at an angle from space and the warhead travels back to earth in different trajectory. Look at how ISRO launches multiple satellites (they have released videos). MIRV uses similar logic to eject out warheads.

1516522080959.png


As seen above, MIRV is about changing the angle of flight at the peak of the parabolic path to make the warheads hit different targets. It requires good calculations, precision manufacturing of missiles but not too hard a technology. India has already mastered it by way of ISRO launching multiple satellites. Recently, ISRO even launched multiple satellites in multiple orbits by reigniting of third stage.

Can Agni 5 be MIRV? Definitely it can be as the flight altitude is 600-800km and it has a third stage to change the angles for ejecting the payload in different parabolic trajectory. Is it MIRV? It is classified and hence I don't know.

@safriz Ababeel has flight altitude of 300km. I wonder how will it have MIRV to hit different targets at sufficient distance.
 

Vicky

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Dec 1, 2017
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Why is it not MIRV? What is the requirements to be a MIRV? The possibility of MIRV occurs when the flight altitude is high enough that the thir stage can simply eject out warheads at an angle from space and the warhead travels back to earth in different trajectory. Look at how ISRO launches multiple satellites (they have released videos). MIRV uses similar logic to eject out warheads.

View attachment 1458

As seen above, MIRV is about changing the angle of flight at the peak of the parabolic path to make the warheads hit different targets. It requires good calculations, precision manufacturing of missiles but not too hard a technology. India has already mastered it by way of ISRO launching multiple satellites. Recently, ISRO even launched multiple satellites in multiple orbits by reigniting of third stage.

Can Agni 5 be MIRV? Definitely it can be as the flight altitude is 600-800km and it has a third stage to change the angles for ejecting the payload in different parabolic trajectory. Is it MIRV? It is classified and hence I don't know.

@safriz Ababeel has flight altitude of 300km. I wonder how will it have MIRV to hit different targets at sufficient distance.

All ballistic missiles go to that height you mention. Infact North Korea tested its missiles in 1000 km altitude range. The thing is Agni 5 in its current version is not capable. It has not been tested, nor such secret test would have gone unnoticed. Simple as that. Nor there is any official press releases to say so. What we know is Agni 6 or K5 SLBM is going to be MIRV capable.

MIRV is a challenge. India can do it with experience from satellites launches. We might need to redesign the cone or should have smaller warheads with destructive capability (not small strategic nukes). So lets wait.
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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All ballistic missiles go to that height you mention. Infact North Korea tested its missiles in 1000 km altitude range. The thing is Agni 5 in its current version is not capable. It has not been tested, nor such secret test would have gone unnoticed. Simple as that. Nor there is any official press releases to say so. What we know is Agni 6 or K5 SLBM is going to be MIRV capable.

MIRV is a challenge. India can do it with experience from satellites launches. We might need to redesign the cone or should have smaller warheads with destructive capability (not small strategic nukes). So lets wait.
It is not just altitude that matters but also horizontal speed at the top most point where vertical speed is 0. That is also critical in making an MIRV. Merely going straight up is not enough.

Next, the missile must also have good calculation ability to launch the warheads in appropriate angles. This part is crucial without which the warhead will end up on some field or forest.

The agni 5 itself can be upgraded into MIRV if needed and that might already have been done too. The problem here is that there is little requirements for MIRV on land based platform as multiple missiles can be kept rather easily. MIRV is more useful for submarine launched platforms as the number of silos is limited. MIRV also carries a significant chances of error due to very minor variation in angles of ejection, speed alteration etc and result in huge error in striking distance.

Russian MIRVED missile tests have failed miserably recently - 3/10 was the hit rate
 

safriz

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One crucial detail Indian members are missing here while trying to assess Indian existing and future MIRV capabilities.
Whats the lightest and smallest Indian warhead of Strategic Yield you can find on any existing missile?
To MIRV the warhead must be small in size and lightweight.
For Example Americans use W87 for MIRV configuration,and the warhead is 180cm tall 56 Cm wide and weighs 270 Kg.
So a Minuteman can carry three of these and still remain within it's maximum payload capacity of 1150 Kg.
Also Minuteman second stage is 1.32 meters wide. Three ,circles of 0.56 meters each can fit in a large circle of 1.32m dia. (check here Smaller Circles in a Larger Circle).

Try finding smallest and lightest Indian Warhead and then we can talk about Indian Mirv.
The smallest i can find is the meter wide Agni-1 warhead.
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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One crucial detail Indian members are missing here while trying to assess Indian existing and future MIRV capabilities.
Whats the lightest and smallest Indian warhead of Strategic Yield you can find on any existing missile?
To MIRV the warhead must be small in size and lightweight.
For Example Americans use W87 for MIRV configuration,and the warhead is 180cm tall 56 Cm wide and weighs 270 Kg.
So a Minuteman can carry three of these and still remain within it's maximum payload capacity of 1150 Kg.
Also Minuteman second stage is 1.32 meters wide. Three ,circles of 0.56 meters each can fit in a large circle of 1.32m dia. (check here Smaller Circles in a Larger Circle).

Try finding smallest and lightest Indian Warhead and then we can talk about Indian Mirv.
The smallest i can find is the meter wide Agni-1 warhead.
When did India release the size of the warheads in public? Do you know what you are speaking? 1metre warhead means that India is extraordinarily backward and retarded in terms of warhead capability. Pakistan also claims to have tactical warheads within 50-60kg weight. Why would you even consider that India which has much more advanced nuclear capability like nuclear submarines, breeder reactors and ability to make large capacity PHWR reactors to generate power and plutonium at the same time is not able to miniature the warheads?

1 metre warhead width is even larger than the first bomb used - little boy. It had a diameter of 70cm!

O one hand you complain about being insulted while on the other you speak like this with an intention of fulfilling your agenda of showing Indian ability poorly! Have a sense of realism.
 
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Bon Plan

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USA miuteman missile is a single warhead missile without any GPS navigation but merely inertial guidance system. The logic behind it is that in war, GPS signals will be blocked by jammers. Worse, it can even be spoofed. So, if there is no GPS, it is impossible to spoof it and hence maintain great accuracy.

The concept of MIRV is about having multiple missiles in the second/third stage instead which is then targeted to different locations. Such targeting doesn't ensure higher chance of hit but just lowers the number of missiles required. The saturation effect doesn't come by MIRV as it hits different targets and hence different BMD is targeting different warheads. To get saturation effect, the system used in MRV where multiple warhead strikes the same area but at a distance. Since all warheads are falling on same area, it acts like a cluster bomb and hence increased saturation. Unfortunately, this MRV is easy to make and is available even with Pakistan.

MIRV is only useful when one wants to strike maximum number of targets with constraints over number of missiles. The BMD can reload after it intercepts these incoming issiles at different areas and hence saturation effect doesn't come. MIRV is mainly useful in submarine missiles.
I doubt any deterrent missile (except futur Terrorist one ?) to be guided by GPS.
GPS can be jammed. In a nuclear war the IEM would have burnt part of the GPS equipments. You need a fire and forget system, totally independant of the exterior. So no GPS or Glonass or Galileo for this purpose.