Pralay and Shaurya: Conventional Strike Surface-to-Surface Missiles

[_Anonymous_]

I'd imagine if the IAF is looking out for an extended range SOW of 1000 kms + then the Nirbhay ALCM is a very strong contender for the job instead of the Pralay modified for AGM usage.

The amount of modifications required on the Pralay would make it a completely new missile whereas it was always understood the Nirbhay / ITCM would be adapted by all three forces for all the 4 dimensions .

Instead of an air launched Pralay it makes more sense to develop a HCM for such a role like what we're trialing right now in the SSM avatar.

Our problem in this domain doesn't pertain to the limitations of technology like it used to be the case in the past but rather is on account of the lack of a suitable platform which in turn is a function of our doctrine which flows directly from our national security requirements informed to a great extent by inputs from the MEA .

Put simply in lay man's terms - we didn't go in for a LR Strategic Bomber for China was never perceived to be a threat in spite of a 2 front war being part of our armed forces lexicon since the past 2 decades.

Why ? Coz even after Galwan our MEA probably didn't foresee anything more than a border war . Something transpired behind the scenes during Operation Sindoor which has spooked off our security managers resulting in a change to that doctrine whose manifestations we're seeing across domains now .

Since getting an LR Strategic Bomber at this stage is out of the question given there's only Russia we can turn to & which in turn will require heavy deployment of escorts , out comes the MRFA tender which is short hand for Rafales , talks of getting the F-35 or Su-57 & so on including now of developing this LR SOW.

 

[Shan]

Subsonic and Supersonic cruise missiles are the preferred long range land attack weapons. Let's get the LRLACM inducted. It should be cost effective and should add an additional package capable of striking all parts of west and forward bases of the east. I have ambivalent feelings on whether or not an air launched Pralay should be worked upon. Hypersonic LACM appear to be the next frontier so I would not focus on running this particular project as a priority.

 

[Shan]

Correction - Subsonic and Supersonic cruise missiles are the preferred long range air launched land attack weapons

 

[babablacksheep]

Watch the video there's a chart showing shaurya missile.

 

[Sathya]

Watch the video there's a chart showing shaurya missile.

Shourya slide at 7:30

 

[marich01]

Shourya slide at 7:30

way back from 2009-2010 times , decades ago. I think most were aware. There was an air launch variant rumoured but probably never materialised obviously.

K Series Ballastic Missiles

The K family of missiles is a series of submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM) developed by India to boost its second-strike capabilities and thus the nu…

defenceprojectsindia.wordpress.com

 

[babablacksheep]

way back from 2009-2010 times , decades ago. I think most were aware. There was an air launch variant rumoured but probably never materialised obviously.

K Series Ballastic Missiles

The K family of missiles is a series of submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM) developed by India to boost its second-strike capabilities and thus the nu…

defenceprojectsindia.wordpress.com

Air launched pralay in works, according to news.


Also if shaurya like missile were to have smaller like 200kg warhead, pretty sure its range in HCM/ hypersonic glide trajectory would exceed 1000+km.
Zircon being an anti ship missile will have a lighter 200kg class warhead like brahmos.

Now from your words, for us shaurya/k15 were stragetic missiles with nuke payload so we didn't made a conventional varient in past according to our doctrine at the time.
But now were making conventional varients based on the tech of these missiles like pralay, but why aren't we making an 1000+km range antiship varient of shaurya? Russian zircon fits inside their p800( brahmos) vls cell.

 

[marich01]

But now were making conventional varients based on the tech of these missiles like pralay, but why aren't we making an 1000+km range antiship varient of shaurya? Russian zircon fits inside their p800( brahmos) vls cell.

very simple, you should not expose the quality of your strategic asset in a tactical battlefield weapon.
It is also very hard to develop accurate guidance system & target acquisition system for very long range systems. This target acquisition system comprises of both the seeker and the algorithm deciding the target classification. Even with very fast computation , you will not be able to deliver error free acquisition at such ranges. Seekers are activated in the very last few tens of seconds of flight for target acquisition (can not sustain longer due to battery) and within that the OBC either handover for autonomous targeting to the seeker itself or give the final cue via data fusion based on data received from other means. This part is very complex, so the vector will maybe hit a target, but whether it was the target or hit some other ship can not be guaranteed.

 

[babablacksheep]

very simple, you should not expose the quality of your strategic asset in a tactical battlefield weapon.

I mean we are probably already doing it with pralay.

Its a 5 ton missile in ready to fire mode with 300-750 kg conventional payload.

Yet it only gives 500km range with its 300-350 kg payload.
Unlike 6ton shaurya which gives 800km range with a 1ton nuke payload.

Given the low range and weight of missile( lets say 4-4.5 tons with 300-350kg payload), its seems unlikely that pralay follows ballistic or quasi-ballistic trajectory, the range seems too low, it all signals towards pralay also having flat trajectory like shaurya/k15 missile.


Though the range still seems low
pralay gives only ~63% of the range of shaurya while carrying the payload that is only 30-35% of the payload weight of shaurya(1 ton) and entire missile being ~75% the weight of shaurya.

but
I heard, that fuel burns at much faster rate in pralay which seems to be true given the above para.
So i assume much faster acceleration or top speed or both.

 

[babablacksheep]

It is also very hard to develop accurate guidance system & target acquisition system for very long range systems. This target acquisition system comprises of both the seeker and the algorithm deciding the target classification. Even with very fast computation , you will not be able to deliver error free acquisition at such ranges. Seekers are activated in the very last few tens of seconds of flight for target acquisition (can not sustain longer due to battery) and within that the OBC either handover for autonomous targeting to the seeker itself or give the final cue via data fusion based on data received from other means. This part is very complex, so the vector will maybe hit a target, but whether it was the target or hit some other ship can not be guaranteed.

Many things are vary hard.
Developing shaurya itself was very hard.

But doable.
Our scramjet hcm in development is very hard, but doable.
Dhvani hgv is very hard but we are doing it.

A zircon like missile will provide us with anti ship capability that is a league above brahmos, and can be fitted within the same vls.
And we already have the base tech for it, proven and operational base tech.

Should be less difficult and less time consuming that developing an scramjet based anti ship missile.
Which while lighter, i kinda doubt will be small/compact enough to fit in existing brahmos vls.

 

[CATS @hunter]

Many things are vary hard.
Developing shaurya itself was very hard.

But doable.
Our scramjet hcm in development is very hard, but doable.
Dhvani hgv is very hard but we are doing it.

A zircon like missile will provide us with anti ship capability that is a league above brahmos, and can be fitted within the same vls.
And we already have the base tech for it, proven and operational base tech.

Should be less difficult and less time consuming that developing an scramjet based anti ship missile.
Which while lighter, i kinda doubt will be small/compact enough to fit in existing brahmos vls.

Well we can't have the UVLS to fit the scramjet engine HCM, it can be double? definitely!! but we can't get the Long range of over 900km+,

 

[marich01]

I mean we are probably already doing it with pralay.

Not at all, only the airframe, certain launch technique things like that are common otherwise vastly different. Pralay uses the Indhan propellant, same one that is to be used in LRSAM and likely the Rudrams too. K-15 juice we do not know, also mission software, flight trajectory etc are differently programmed, plus the underwater booster config retained, which later flow into Brahmos.

 

[babablacksheep]

Well we can't have the UVLS to fit the scramjet engine HCM, it can be double? definitely!! but we can't get the Long range of over 900km+,

This is the range chart of shaurya.
According to it, its 700-800km range is with 1ton payload.

Anti ship missiles like brahmos carry ~200kg, and a missile based on this will be faster at mach ~4 in terminal, so payload can go even lower at 150kg.
So ~1800km range according to this chart.

But lets also make it slightly shorter to fit in brahmos container, extra modifications for anti ship role, but also modern composites for lighter body and 200 kg payload.
Then 1500km range is doable.

A missiles that flies in flat trajectory at 30-40km altitude at hypersonic speeds, with 1500km range in anti ship role and fits inside brahmos vls cell.

That's the potential missile were looking at, that's the missile russian zircon is.


Scarmjet missile with 1500km range while definitely lighter than this missile, but i doubt will be more compact, most likely it will be longer than this missile.

Not at all, only the airframe, certain launch technique things like that are common otherwise vastly different. Pralay uses the Indhan propellant, same one that is to be used in LRSAM and likely the Rudrams too. K-15 juice we do not know, also mission software, flight trajectory etc are differently programmed, plus the underwater booster config retained, which later flow into Brahmos.

Well then how do we explain its lack of range for its weight?
And what trajectory does it follow according to you? Quasi-ballistic ballistic?

 

[marich01]

Well then how do we explain its lack of range for its weight?
And what trajectory does it follow according to you? Quasi-ballistic ballistic?

It is perfectly balanced, a 75cm dia missile giving 700-800km is perfect as a deterrent. Fly in higher altitude region it burns less fuel and more range. Fly low altitude, the faster you fly the more fuel is spent. Simple.

 

[babablacksheep]

It is perfectly balanced, a 75cm dia missile giving 700-800km is perfect as a deterrent. Fly in higher altitude region it burns less fuel and more range. Fly low altitude, the faster you fly the more fuel is spent. Simple.

Pralay gives 500km range with its 300-350kg warhead.

I'm not talking about shaurya/k15 with its 700-800km range with 1 ton warhead in flat trajectory.

Pralay's range with its lighter warhead is too low for its weight if compared to other "quasi-ballistic" missiles.
So what trajectory pralay follows?

 

[marich01]

Pralay gives 500km range with its 300-350kg warhead.

I'm not talking about shaurya/k15 with its 700-800km range with 1 ton warhead in flat trajectory.

Pralay's range with its lighter warhead is too low for its weight if compared to other "quasi-ballistic" missiles.
So what trajectory pralay follows?

the fuel is different, less isp and *C (characteristics velocity) suitable for mass multi platform tactical use for long stable store life.
Pralay specs are confidential.

 

[CATS @hunter]

Pralay gives 500km range with its 300-350kg warhead.

I'm not talking about shaurya/k15 with its 700-800km range with 1 ton warhead in flat trajectory.

Pralay's range with its lighter warhead is too low for its weight if compared to other "quasi-ballistic" missiles.
So what trajectory pralay follows?

Likely a tradeoff for flying within the atmosphere, the terminal speed of pralay is Mach -6, the boost phase & mid course are higher, it would require faster burn rate

 

[Hydra]

Peeple are talking lot about airlaunched Pralay & Shaurya,well it's a fantastic idea. Question is from which platform it will be launched?C17,C130 or IL76? No airsuperiority fighter can launch a ballistic missile like shaurya, u need either a transport aircraft to dropp mossile pallet or a dedicated Bomber.
You can ruled out Chinese & c17,uncle sam won't allow that i guess & making IL76 is the only left out option. But IL76 is at the edge of retiring. Do we need to invest money on r&d to launch missile from such platform?no.

 

[marich01]

Wonder what warhead they are to put on the currently ordered batch if the pcb warhead pdc is November ? maybe the pf one is cleared already ?

 

[marich01]

Those Pralay MLS & BCC vehicles (the one that is shown in Republic Day parade & other DRDO events) need extensive repair after every firing.