What if Pakistan gets fifth generation fighter before India?

That's why I always said that dropping out of FGFA project despite AM Varthaman's green signal was an absolutely disastrous decision. Chinese nosed ahead of us in the race to acquire next gen. Fighter, now their poodle is looking to do the same.
 
That's why I always said that dropping out of FGFA project despite AM Varthaman's green signal was an absolutely disastrous decision. Chinese nosed ahead of us in the race to acquire next gen. Fighter, now their poodle is looking to do the same.
The Pakistanis won't be able to afford the kaan. They can barely run their airforce with the f-16s. The only thing they have the aukaad is for j-31 with rd-93MA's. That's it. Will still pose a problem. Turkish hardware is too expensive for the Rawalpindi gang. At best they can buy their drones and munitions. Nothing more. Any flagship turkish program like the altay and kaan is out of their aukaad.
 
F35 is not close to be really operational today. Even lightnings are frightening F35 😁
Rafale F3R are operational in India today. With Rafale planned upgrades, it will be ready to counter F35 in pakistany's hands.
 
The Pakistanis won't be able to afford the kaan. They can barely run their airforce with the f-16s. The only thing they have the aukaad is for j-31 with rd-93MA's. That's it. Will still pose a problem. Turkish hardware is too expensive for the Rawalpindi gang. At best they can buy their drones and munitions. Nothing more. Any flagship turkish program like the altay and kaan is out of their aukaad.
Their mission is complete termination of Hinduism. They will go towards any means to achieve this. Beg, borrow or steal. Turkey also is an anti-India nation and supports Pakistani agenda of 'Gazwa-E-Hind'.

So, don't be surprised if Pakistanis get their first 5th gen fighter before us.
 
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I mean with the same logic how do you explain new frigates, 8 SSKs, MGS or J10.

They will find a way.
All Chinese funded Saar. They are selling their soul for Chinese junk. The only thing they can afford from the Turks are the bayraktars and akinci which as shown in Ukraine will be useless within the first week of an actual conflict. Those frigates and SSK's are decade old deals that have been going as long as India procurements of similar systems.
Their mission is complete termination of Hinduism. They will go towards any means to achieve this. Beg, borrow or steal. Turkey also is an anti-India nation and supports Pakistani agenda of 'Gazwa-E-Hind'.

So, don't be surprised if Pakistanis get their first 5th gen fighter before us.
They are too bankrupt and unstable to go for fifth gen fighters. We need to get 5th gen fighter considering the Chingos have 200 j-20's in service already, so f-35 is a reality that the IAF will have to accept soon. We need atleast three squadrons of f-35 to cover the entire north and eastern front with rafales,Tejas and flankers on top of them.
 
That's why I always said that dropping out of FGFA project despite AM Varthaman's green signal was an absolutely disastrous decision. Chinese nosed ahead of us in the race to acquire next gen. Fighter, now their poodle is looking to do the same.
Russian plane is outright crap....good that we left that program


as for Pakistan , they will get them somehow.
Turkish one will be a problem given most of the Technology in it is not even from Turkey but we may never know.
 
All Chinese funded Saar. They are selling their soul for Chinese junk. The only thing they can afford from the Turks are the bayraktars and akinci which as shown in Ukraine will be useless within the first week of an actual conflict. Those frigates and SSK's are decade old deals that have been going as long as India procurements of similar systems.

They are too bankrupt and unstable to go for fifth gen fighters. We need to get 5th gen fighter considering the Chingos have 200 j-20's in service already, so f-35 is a reality that the IAF will have to accept soon. We need atleast three squadrons of f-35 to cover the entire north and eastern front with rafales,Tejas and flankers on top of them.
USAF wouldn't want NGAD if they thought F-35s would be able to defeat J-20 in a one vs one battle. F-35 is a strike fighter. You need Stealth Air Superiority Fighter to defeat J-20.

Except Su-57, currently there isn't a plane in the whole world that can dominate J-20.
Russian plane is outright crap....good that we left that program
It was a joint Indo-Russian program. And it was stupid that we left it for MMRCA, period.
as for Pakistan , they will get them somehow.
Turkish one will be a problem given most of the Technology in it is not even from Turkey but we may never know.
Pakistan and Azerbaijan both have joined the program. There is no if but when...
 
USAF wouldn't want NGAD if they thought F-35s would be able to defeat J-20 in a one vs one battle. F-35 is a strike fighter. You need Stealth Air Superiority Fighter to defeat J-20.

Except Su-57, currently there isn't a plane in the whole world that can dominate J-20.

It was a joint Indo-Russian program. And it was stupid that we left it for MMRCA, period.

Pakistan and Azerbaijan both have joined the program. There is no if but when...
So what's our options other than Russian ? Join US or France ?.....I seriously don't think AMCA will live up to the hype.
 
I mean with the same logic how do you explain new frigates, 8 SSKs, MGS or J10.

They will find a way.
I don't think erdogan will survive next 5 yrs.

Besides that by the time PAF gets a 5th gen a/c we wil have :
1> LCA SP44 still testing LCA MK2 feature,
2> Weaponised HTT40 Prop plane
3> atleast 50 more artist renditions of AMCA, TEDBF, ORCA,
4>4 Proposals of HMRROD based on AMCA, BSTRD based on TEDBF, CHT1A based on LCA Mk1and MDCHD based on MKI

That should be enough to take on PAF in a limited online conflict.
 
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So what's our options other than Russian ? Join US or France ?.....I seriously don't think AMCA will live up to the hype.
Yeah, looks like the Russian option is gone. NGAD is too far in future and whether Uncle Sam sells that to us without "falling in line" is whole different question.

Only option is to go whole hog on swadeshi and bet on AMCA. The current engine deal with Safran is the right way to go.

AMCA will live upto all hype and more. We have the tech. Only matter of time. But yes, this period will be extremely painful for IAF because now both our primary enemies will have VLO(one already has in 100s and adding) while we'll have only evolved 4th gen planes.
 
USAF wouldn't want NGAD if they thought F-35s would be able to defeat J-20 in a one vs one battle. F-35 is a strike fighter. You need Stealth Air Superiority Fighter to defeat J-20
J-20 has too many flaws. It's nowhere close to capability of the f-35 which itself is still a flawed product. The f-35 with meteor will be a huge problem for the j-20.
 
J-20 has too many flaws.

True. It's still a WIP. But it's never advisable to underestimate our enemy.
It's nowhere close to capability of the f-35 which itself is still a flawed product.
With twin WS-15 engines, it'll be able to supercruise at around Mach 1.5. Its service ceiling would be way more higher than F-35. It has got 11 tons+ of internal fuel volume. If its radar and other sensors work as advertised then in a head-on fight, F-35 is completely screwed.
The f-35 with meteor will be a huge problem for the j-20.
No. Radar guided missiles have a lot of problem tracking VLO jets. That extra range is somewhat nullified(though higher NEZ is useful).

The best missile to destroy J-20 would be MICA-IR NG. So far we haven't seen DIRCM in it. So actually Rafale with MICA-IR(NG) combo is lot more dangerous for J-20 than F-35 with Meteor. That'a why China doesn't want India to procure more Rafales. They know how good it really is.
 
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F-35 is completely screwed.
How when F-35 has lower RCS. F-35 will always see the j-20 first. Chinese mil electronics have only had questionable performance. Heck their former customers prefer turkish tech over them. F-35 is good enough for Indian environment. But it needs to be used very conservatively if inducted.
 
How when F-35 has lower RCS. F-35 will always see the j-20 first. Chinese mil electronics have only had questionable performance. Heck their former customers prefer turkish tech over them. F-35 is good enough for Indian environment. But it needs to be used very conservatively if inducted.
I explained that analogy in Su-57 thread. Even if F-35 is more stealthy say -50dBsm from front and J-20 is -30dBsm from the same angle, none will be able to detect each other from far. And by the time their radars detect each other, their new gen IRST will detect their opponent's presence from far. So chances of both of them detecting each other at the same time is very high. F-35 vs J-20 isn't the same as F-35 vs J-16 because of former's VLO advantage.

So fact of the matter is VLO vs VLO may not be BVR at all. Either WVR or near WVR. And that is where anything goes.
 

Turkey seeks partners for TF-X fighter program amid fiscal uncertainty


ANKARA, Turkey — The first aircraft of Turkey’s indigenous fighter program, the TF-X, sits in a hangar ahead of its maiden flight at the end of the year. But fiscal problems could stand in the way of its success, according to an analyst, even as the country’s president seeks partners for the program.

The Turkish economy is experiencing high inflation, and the country’s external debt in March. The international insurance company Allianz Trade reported[/URL] the stock of total external debt due within the next 12 months has risen to about $250 billion.

“Inevitably, the TF-X program will face financial difficulties in line with the country’s economic situation,” Ozgur Eksi, a defense analyst in Ankara, told Defense News.

However, Turkey is seeking foreign partners[/URL], which could lessen its own financial burden in regard to the program.

Turkish Defence Minister Yasar Guler said Aug. 14 Pakistan was about to sign an agreement to participate in the development of the fifth-generation fighter. “Friendly and brotherly countries are also making efforts to become partners in this project. An agreement was signed with Azerbaijan. There are other countries that are also about to sign, like Pakistan,” Guler said.

If Pakistan joins the Turkish program, it would be its second international fighter partnership following a deal with China on the JF-17 built by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Corp.

As for Azerbaijan, the government there signed a protocol with Turkey to explore involvement in the TF-X program.

“With the protocol, it is aimed to determine the working procedures and principles of cooperation with Azerbaijan on joint production issues, including the development activities of the 5th-generation national combat aircraft Kaan, which is being developed for the Turkish Air Force,” according to the Turkish Defence Industry Agency, using the government’s chosen name for the TF-X aircraft.

The agency, otherwise known as SSB, did not reply to Defense News’ questions on the TF-X and specifically Pakistan’s current status in relation to the program.

The Pakistan Air Force declined to comment on the status.

“Getting in foreign partners is like subletting part of your house: You share expenses, but disputes become inevitable and troubleshooting takes much longer than normal,” Eksi said. “Hydrocarbon-rich Azerbaijan has money. Pakistan does not but could transfer know-how. Once combat-proven, the Kaan could be an option for countries without access to Western-made fighter aircraft.”

Eugene Kogan, a defense analyst based in Tbilisi, Georgia, said Azerbaijan appears ready to bring money to the table.

“As for Pakistan, I wonder what exactly it can bring to the table. Not money, obviously. Technological know-how? More questions than answers,” he told Defense News.

Future flight​

The government wants to fly the planned aircraft this year, the centennial of the Turkish republic. Turkish Aerospace Industries said the TF-X will fly Dec. 27, 2023.

Under the program, TAI will deliver 20 TF-X Block 10 aircraft to the Air Force in 2028. The company said in March the per-unit price will be $100 million, but noted in May it could be “a little bit higher.” By 2029, TAI plans to produce two TF-X fighters per month, generating an annual revenue of $2.4 billion.

“In all probability, the aircraft will fly for political purposes before critical local elections [in March] but without most systems fitted into it,” a program insider told Defense News on the condition of anonymity, fearing prosecution for discussing the subject. “Most Turks will not know or care if the aircraft is ready for any mission. It will be a piece in [the] government’s showoff.”

Turkey launched the TF-X program in 2009. In October 2016, British firm Rolls-Royce offered a joint production partnership to Turkey with a view to powering planned Turkish platforms and potential sales to third parties. The company’s proposal, which still stands, would see a production unit in Turkey manufacture engines for the TF-X as well as helicopters, tanks and missiles.

In January 2017, the British company BAE Systems and TAI signed a deal worth more than £100 million (U.S. $127 million) to develop the Turkish fighter jet. Presently there are about 30 BAE engineers working at the TAI production unit for the TF-X.

Then in 2022, the Turkish government launched a competition for the local development of a turbofan engine to power the TF-X. Three competitors are in the running: Tusas Engine Industries; TRMotor; and TAEC, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and Turkish industrial conglomerate Kale, which owns 51% of TAEC.

TAEC has pitched an engine expected to fly the aircraft at a maximum altitude of 40,000 feet and help it reach a speed of up to Mach 1.8.

It’s unclear what TRMotor is offering. The company was founded in 2017 by SSTEK, a subsidiary of SSB. Tusas, which is the parent company of Tusas Engine Industries and Turkish Aerospace Industries, wholly owns TRMotor.

Tusas Engine Industries is developing TEI-TF6000 and TEI-TF10000 engines, referring to them as a prelude to what it will produce for the TF-X. TEI is a government-controlled business founded in 1985 as a joint venture involving the American firm GE Aviation (now GE Aerospace), Turkish Aerospace Industries, the Turkish Aeronautical Association, and the government-owned Turkish Armed Forces Foundation.

SSB plans to build TF-X prototypes using the American-made F110 engine. The General Electric F110 is an afterburning turbofan jet engine produced by GE Aerospace, and it uses the same engine core design as the company’s F101. The engine is also built under license by Tusas Engine Industries.

Turkey wants to use the F110 in serial production, but powering the TF-X with the engine may prove difficult because serial production could require vast amounts of investment and tests. Furthermore, this option would come with the same export license and intellectual property rights as Rolls-Royce’s offer, which the Turkish government dislikes.

Eksi said the government shouldn’t delay its engine choice any longer.

“Every [engine] proposal has advantages and disadvantages. Ankara must make a decision at once before it’s too late to move onto the serial production phase at feasible costs,” he explained.

Ultimately, the TF-X’s export potential is key to the program’s success, Eksi added.

“There are several countries that cannot buy Western-made aircraft for political reasons. Some of those countries also want to avoid Russian- or Chinese-made aircraft, also for political reasons. The Kaan could be what they’re looking for.”