Jammu & Kashmir live updates: GOI remove all provisions of Article 370
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Exactly.. I have been wondering why does a Kashmiri deserve a better treatment than a Bihari, Karnndiga or Odiya ?? By what parameters a Kashmiri is superior to us? Because my King didn't create a ruckus during 1947 or because my state people didn't force minorities to leave the state ?? How exactly the Kashmiris contribute to the cause of India while enjoying more than their fare share of national resources which rest of India didn't ??
Frankly speaking they have enjoyed a lot over last 72 years and it's high time they learn to live like any other Indian. If they do not like something they have every right to protest in peaceful manner or approach the judicial system. But any violent protest must be treated the same way it's done in any other part of India.
Thanks @_Anonymous_ I will try and address this to my best knowledge and belief
This is the right question to ask. Am glad you asked it. I will try and explain whatever little i know about the history of my state to explain why it is where it is and i will leave it to your judgement then
Here is the sequence of events that happened
- Partition happened and our founders went about getting the instrument of accession signed by multiple princely states
- Hyderabad and J&K (and I think Junagarh as well) did not sign the instrument
- Hyderabad not only did not sign, but was trying to cut deals with Pakistan.
- Iron man of India, our Home minister - Sardar Patel took a danda and sent army in and we merged hyderabad into India. No one said anything and we sent nawab on a long holiday never to come back
- J&K, which i think was nehru's maternal side home chose to stay independent. however it was a kingdom where majority was ruled by minority (Like mughals ruled primarily hindu India, Raja Hari singh ruled a muslim J&K). Be as that may be, they did not side with india or pakistan
- From Pakistan side, Kabailis entered the state - started plundering, looting and raping and captured half the state - It is still a question if Gilgit Baltistan actually ever was under full control of maharaja or not - but that is a separate topic for another day
- So, Maharaja wakes up and goes begging to Delhi for help
- India says, sign the instrument of accession and we will help
- A condition is put (and really supported by Indian leadership (except Sardar Patel)) that the people of the state will be able to chose who do they want to go with. So, the state is accorded a special right, which comes into constitution as a temporary clause
- They were allowed their own flag, prime minister and constitution
- india controlled foreign affairs, defence and one more thing and EVERYTHING else was owned by J&K. Imagine, India had 2 prime ministers (one of the state of J&K)
- Not only that, India took the issue to UN in the first place (AUGUST 1948) - So, OUR leader did the donors of making this an international issue. lt was Indira Gandhi, who after 1971 victory, forced pakistan to sign that our issues are bilateral (and God bless her for that specific foresight), that we really got ourselves off the US and UN pressure. China was no one back then, and Russia was a beloved friend
- The govt of J&K plays a trick, i think in 1953, and passes a resolution to make 370 permanent and takes away the right from centre to repeal it (which is what you will see come up very very soon for a SC hearing)
- Congress (Con-gress it should be known as), over a long 50 year period goes from one mistake to another and does it second biggest mistake in 1989, when separatists want to participate in election, congress creates a sham election and NC wins defrauding all these guys you today know as separatists. they gets disillusioned and pick up weapons and guess what - Pakistan comes in to their help
- That was the time, when Khalistan moment was fading, Russia had lost the afghan battle and there were a lot of free guerrilla in Afghanistan and free ISI in pakistan to fan the movement
- Since then, it has been a consistent downhill battle, Jagmohan did well but consecutive state govt and central govt kept making a mess of the situation
- Now there are many nuances and details alike that i have missed as i am trying to give the big picture (apologies for any glaring misses)
So, the bottom line of the long story is - India gave a guarantee - a constitutional one at that - To keep Kashmir as a special state. and we kept it alive for 70 years (70 bloody years). THAT IS THE ONLY THING, that makes Kashmir special. A Govt of India guarantee on Indian Constitution Paper.
4-5 generations have passed with a strong and established belief that Kashmir will be resolved with Pakistan and Kashmiris will be asked who will they go with. You may feel agitated at this whole drama. But put yourself in the show of a 16-21 year old Kashmiri boy - He has seen only AFSPA (needed but has its costs and consequences for local population), he has grown up on islamist teachings, constant strikes, and has been told (rightly) that he has a right to decide. THAT is all that young boy will now ask for. and he will say, you committed to me. What we have to decide is what is the answer we want to give him and how. Like a lawyer today said - today you changed 370. tomorrow you can change the right to life. That is not how constitutions work. That Kashmir is a part of India, was decided in October 1947. Modi just declared it in August 2019(i do like the tag line - modi hei to mumkin hei; though i don't agree with how they did it - it was about time). The process of adjusting and reconciling for those missing 70 years will costs us some and we should try and do that as humanly as possible.
So, to answer your question - Kashmiri is nothing special. Just like a Jammu guy or a Bihar guy or a Tamil fella. It is the Politics of Indian Govt that made it special. Unfortunately it was done as a constitutional guarantee anyhow to remove those and the legality of that will become the question (am not even going to morality - as then we have to look at the morality of throwing kashmiri pandits out - who were as much kashmiri as any of those stone pelters today)
Two side points
- Many people don;t know that versions of article 35A are applied in other states as well - you cannot buy land in HP, Utranchal and Arunachal, if you are not from that state. But given the politics, people only talk about 35A of Kashmir. Again, another topic for another day
- I will not go into the propaganda of who paid fair share and consumed fair share or not. That is a long discussion, i am willing to have with people some day as there are significant discrepancies in that story as well. BIMARU states take way more than J&K, except defence. And Defence is not a state expense. but anyways... separate and emotional topic.
my 2 humble cents.. Happy to answer follow up questions - though travelling a bit for next 3 days.
Jai Hind.
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Thanks for the long history of events. As you accepted yourself Kashmiri is not special and I appreciate that fact. As far as article 370 is concerned it was a temporary provision very clearly mentioned in the Constitution and if it is not, then Kashmiris are most welcome to challenge that in the court of law. I am sure Govt of India is not that stupid that it didn't consult best of the constitutional experts before taking such a drastic step. Neither you nor me are experts in that area. So let's wait for the Supreme Court to deliver the verdict. BTW, there was no guarantee in constitution for the special state status. I would really appreciate if you can point me to that provision. I agree that it's the stupid politicians who let it continue for 72 years !! Anyway better late than never!!
During 1947, the kings were promised privy purses. What happened to that ?? There are hundreds of times the constitution has changed over last 69 years and it will change in future.
I do not want to get into statements like " a lawyer today said - today you changed 370. tomorrow you can change the right to life ". I would just suggest the lawyer should look for some other profession. His legal and logical argument sucks !!
I never suggested the change should not be done in human way. I am sure Govt of India will do it's best. However the Kashmiris also must respond like humans. If they start their monkey business again, they should expect similar response in return!! Hint: Law and order is with central government.
BTW The valley folks didn't really behave like humans when they forced Pandits to leave like paupers. I am surprised in spite of presenting such long list of events, you chose to ignore this painful event while expecting Indians to understand the pain of Kashmiris!!
The press generally doesn't know what they are talking about when it comes to security related matters.
This was not supposed to be permanent. It was supposed to last only a few years.
It was a temporary provision until J&K was to become an autonomous state, after which Article 370 would be withdrawn. The title of the Article literally said "Temporary Provision".
But after Article 370 was enacted, the Kashmiris betrayed India by dissolving the Constituent Assembly on its own.
So as I said before conventional war will not happen. And other forum members should also learn this that to begin a war threshold must be crossed. There are only two threshold points which can lead to limited war.
1. LOC change (capturing land)
2. Major terror strike in India originating from Pak with huge causalities.
Apart from this there is now way a war could start. Although we are already fighting assymtric war but going total outright is only possible if two points above occur.
The current situation can trigger the two above but that depends on Pakistanis and with current developments and observing them they will not breach the LOC. But major tango activity can cause a small skirmish a very limited one maximum CFV.
Let me make every one here clear the Pakistanis do not believe in documentation so whether we scrap A370 or what so ever it wouldn't be a serious issue for their military. They will keep the momentum up to send infiltrators to woo the non Kashmiris. We had the instrument of accession but they do not believe in it they still captured Pak occupied Kashmir. So ultimately what matters is Land and Territory. That's all. We neither have gained the territory nor lost any.
When we talk about POK that what troubles Pakistan the most. Amit shah told that they can die to get back POK, that's the concern of Pakistani fauj and military intelligentsia.
Baki in sab ke bache bahar hai bahar se bohot pressure hai ki kuch nahi karna modi ek baar na bhi suney but in Pakistan US and Saudi Arab have told them not to retaliate severly in any kind.
1. LOC change (capturing land)
2. Major terror strike in India originating from Pak with huge causalities.
Apart from this there is now way a war could start. Although we are already fighting assymtric war but going total outright is only possible if two points above occur.
The current situation can trigger the two above but that depends on Pakistanis and with current developments and observing them they will not breach the LOC. But major tango activity can cause a small skirmish a very limited one maximum CFV.
Let me make every one here clear the Pakistanis do not believe in documentation so whether we scrap A370 or what so ever it wouldn't be a serious issue for their military. They will keep the momentum up to send infiltrators to woo the non Kashmiris. We had the instrument of accession but they do not believe in it they still captured Pak occupied Kashmir. So ultimately what matters is Land and Territory. That's all. We neither have gained the territory nor lost any.
When we talk about POK that what troubles Pakistan the most. Amit shah told that they can die to get back POK, that's the concern of Pakistani fauj and military intelligentsia.
Baki in sab ke bache bahar hai bahar se bohot pressure hai ki kuch nahi karna modi ek baar na bhi suney but in Pakistan US and Saudi Arab have told them not to retaliate severly in any kind.
Well that was pretty informative to begin with. There are lot of ifs & buts in the argument. AFPSA was not there to begin with neither was the military all these stuff only started post 1989 about which you would know better.
Every now & then ppl bring up the promise of plebiscite , they conveniently (selectively?) forget that it is a two way street where all the conditions need to be met by all the parties involved. Simply haranguing India on it is disingenuous at the best.
What I dont understand is that what did ppl in state lose when article 370 was scrapped? (other than loss of statehood). It looks like more of a tantrum thrown by unruly teenager than any thing else. On the flip side ppl of ladakh (except few ) and jammu are happy that they have more say in their future.
PS: please stop putting Jai Hind in the post, it looks pretty silly & ridiculous.
She couldn't wait more, these articles are getting old, shame on all of you, can't give her one glorious day of blood bath so she can it published in Washington Post. Had to come down to HT, she was aiming for atleast one award from 370 blood bath, spoiled everything, it was like second coming of her after Godhra lies.
Even editor guild is disappointed, all those print journalists camping in valley, shooting day and night just to get one exclusive shot, how inconsiderate of you, have to release a press statement condemning government, kuch to news bane kahin se.
370 removal can't match even Ram Rahim's arrest? 30-35 were killed in hours here its been days, still searching for one death. How else you expected editors guild to respond? Praising you? They have written articles up till Kashmir gets separated and Modi government falls, where will these articles go now? Hai koi jawab fascists RW sanghis?
Snowflakes are sad Kashmir did not blow up. I am sad because Pakistan did not try something.
Meanwhile, can anyone confirm if the video BBC is peddling is indeed from Pakistan like people on twitter are claiming?
Kashmiri Muslims have no sense of responsibility which is exacerbated by the support they get from Pak and indian librandus.
Now that govt made their personal mission to improve the livelihood of every single kashmiri all it will make them do look down on the rest of Indians. No wonder they left dogras and ladakhis, two very patriotic groups to the mercy of Kashmiri muslims
Indian mentality of kicking our own will never go away.
Different political association is fine. But any action by those Indians which appears to be peddling fake news which causes a harm to our cause or goes against the national narrative or against our security, shall surely call for criticism, because that's criminal. Of course i agree even then we all should try to use reasonable words.
For name calling Pakistani persons. Well talking for myself only, i can only assure that i will never go personal on any single person.
But other than that, i do enjoy every single bomb blast!
PS: Credits to mods. They have shown great degree of tolerance surely.
While I politically support the move to scrap the special status of J&K, I register reservations the manner in which the government went about it. I have also stated in other forums that the move reduce J&K to a union territory from a full state is fraught with danger to our federal spirit.
While the special status of J&K had made it a first among equals, one swell swoop it has been reduced to the second among equals. Not only was this move unprecedented, govt has not consulted the other states and political leadership in other parties, as to what mechanism of consultation has been evolved to to avoid its political abuse.
Article 3 of the constitution lays down the rules for altering the boundaries of state of the Indian union, nowhere does it say the residual state (s) from this alteration would undergo a change in its basic constitutional relationship with the union. This move is unprecedented and should worry the other Indian states. To begin with no state of the union should lose its constitutional status of a "state". If the central government deems such a step is necessary, let them propose an amendment to Article 3 of the constitution, consult the states, both the houses of the parliament, and incorporate it into the Article 3. If the bill passes the judicial review let it become the law.
Government has treated the Constitutional mechanism and its spirit in the most lackadaisical manner in the manner in which it went about bifurcating the state.
While the special status of J&K had made it a first among equals, one swell swoop it has been reduced to the second among equals. Not only was this move unprecedented, govt has not consulted the other states and political leadership in other parties, as to what mechanism of consultation has been evolved to to avoid its political abuse.
Article 3 of the constitution lays down the rules for altering the boundaries of state of the Indian union, nowhere does it say the residual state (s) from this alteration would undergo a change in its basic constitutional relationship with the union. This move is unprecedented and should worry the other Indian states. To begin with no state of the union should lose its constitutional status of a "state". If the central government deems such a step is necessary, let them propose an amendment to Article 3 of the constitution, consult the states, both the houses of the parliament, and incorporate it into the Article 3. If the bill passes the judicial review let it become the law.
Government has treated the Constitutional mechanism and its spirit in the most lackadaisical manner in the manner in which it went about bifurcating the state.
So long as we maintain media blackout there will be scope for rumor mongering. Govt should at least allow accredited members of the media to report from the state.
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Well I have not seen that..... But Aljazeera Is not an agency to trust especially when it comes to Kashmir issue.... A basic search would give one understanding how biased they are....And he is a ret Lt gen of IA.....