Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Spitfire6]

In the case of Canada, Dassault (as AIrbus with EF2000) decided not to compete because unfair competition.....

and yet Saab entered and got quite far. surely the Rafale would have won being so superioer?
every time the Rafale doesn't win there is some excuse, and whenever it does win all the losses are convenently ignored. we have treaded this ground a hundred times already.

its pointless because you cannot even conceed any losses

It was the argument in Switzerland..... F-35 are so good that even only in simulators they are better than others ! (a big bull shit).

Except that the bill is not the one promised. 30 for the price of 36 plus some more money than intended when ordered.

Nice !!!

The Rafale lost. the Rafale lost to the F-35 in Switzerland. public knowledge vs French excuses.

Seems that :
They were very happy with Rafale during Sindoor,
They decided to purchase Rafale instead of SH18 despite its huge radar and best missiles (LOL).
Every day we are nearer a huge 114 Rafale indian order.
So.... missed !

you are still ignoring the initial controversy and cost overruns with your original bogus claim. The French people on this forum truly believe that people have no memories LOL

watch:
Seems that :
"They" were very happy with F-35 in various combats
"They" decided to purchase F-35 instead of Rafale despite its huge radar and best missiles (LOL).
Every day we are nearer another 100+ F-35 annual production
So.... missed !
your argument suck and are easily reversed which make them essentially meaningless. the point stands, that not all Rafale have been delivered as you originally claimed. You can't retroactively change history. The French cohort on this thread Truly think Indians are the others here are simpletons who don't see through obvious attempts to white wash history.
if you want to argue that so long as they are happy the cost overruns and delays are nullified, then the F-35 fanboys can say the same thing. LOL

 

[Spitfire6]

it is delivered on time, on spec, on budget.

this was your original claim. The Indian experience invalidates this claim.

This is where the French cohort always gets itself into trouble. They will say 3 bad things about the F-35 that are true. But then they take it a little too far and say a 4th thing that is not true. This destroys their credibility. They also pick really stupid fights and then lose them, but this is just a French trait, and cannot be cured short of a massive eugenics program. Luckily, there are already large populations of non-French moving there now and the problem will be solved soon enough.

I don't know what it is about the French here but they simply cannot help themselves. Beating up on Lockheed and the F-35 program should be very easy, but they find a way to take it too far and muck it up. its spellbinding. Bon Plan is pretending the controversy in India never existed. Herciv tells us the Rafale and F-35 use inferior materials for their Canopies. Pickleoil doesn't understand how basic program reporting works, and claims there is a conspiracy and cover up. this is so easy. why lie? and why lie in such easily found ways?
how are the French so bad at this? are the French this gullible with each other and then think that everyone else must be as well?

Rafale is one of the most hidden, Where are the annual reviews? It's only when the upgrades are announced, we realise how terrible it was

This is correct. The French see conspiracy everywhere yet don't find it suspicious that Rafale shortfalls are never mentioned, and yet Uprgades are always needed-- including specifics demanded by India-- how strange!

The reason for this is not because the Rafale does not have problems, its is because France is in competition with Eurofighter and Gripen who are also in no hurry to share any shortfalls with their products lest the competition take advantage of them. the aircraft end up "inflated" basically. Women do this as well. They will not admit to any shortcomings because it will damage their social status, so they all basically agree to lie to keep up appearances. the Us reporting standards are obviously different. Its not that the F-35 does not have problems, because it does. However these problems are pubic knowledge while Rafales are hidden. This leads the French to great conspiracy when their favorite loses. it is a conspiracy, its just not the way they think it is. Dassault knows the Rafale has shortcomings but they will never broadcast them and the French government will never demand for them to be revealed publicly for reasons already mentioned.

The French routinely lie on this forum and also think that if something is not mentioned, then it must not exist, unless it is the F-35 in which cases there are problems even where non-exist, because the regular problems are not enough for them, so they have to invent more.

 

[Optimist]

It's nice to see a rational though, To the french the F-35 is indeed the tall poppy syndrome deep in their psyche, Combining this with the knowledge that they have a 40 year old fighter and no real plans for a replacement, All they can do is attack others, to reinforce their delusions of adequacy

 

[Bon Plan]

this was your original claim. The Indian experience invalidates this claim.

explain where the indian Rafale were not delivered on time, on spec, on budget.

The Rafale lost. the Rafale lost to the F-35 in Switzerland. public knowledge vs French excuses.

The rafale was found more costly.
Then the bill for just 30 swiss F-35 is even higher than the 36 proposed at the beginning. A little bit easy to win a deal, isn't it?

 

[Bon Plan]

Every day we are nearer another 100+ F-35 annual production

How many with a lead ballast instead of a radar ?

France is 7th time smaller than USA. Rafale production is today around 25/year, and soon >30. Not to bad for a so small country.

It's nice to see a rational though, To the french the F-35 is indeed the tall poppy syndrome deep in their psyche, Combining this with the knowledge that they have a 40 year old fighter and no real plans for a replacement, All they can do is attack others, to reinforce their delusions of adequacy

Shut up stupid Kangaroo. Think instead of your AUKUS syndrome that will leave you without any sub in a couple of years.

 

[Optimist]

explain where the indian Rafale were not delivered on time, on spec, on budget.

The rafale was found more costly.
Then the bill for just 30 swiss F-35 is even higher than the 36 proposed at the beginning. A little bit easy to win a deal, isn't it?

It was the then year cost at the time, Inflations a bit'ch and you have the current price

Shut up stupid Kangaroo. Think instead of your AUKUS syndrome that will leave you without any sub in a couple of years.

What a sad little boy

 

[Spitfire6]

France is 7th time smaller than USA. Rafale production is today around 25/year, and soon >30. Not to bad for a so small country.

If you want to play this card then by all means please do. but please stop with the "not bad for a tiny little country eh?" at the same time you are trying to say that you are equivalent to the F-35 program and throwing childish fits online with the sensitivity of tooth with an exposed root.

you can't be the underdog and the big dog at the same time! but they want it both ways! The French Cohort here constantly switch narratives two and fro and its obvious just how vapid, transparent, and shallow the entire exercise is, and the best part is you think no one notices!

Shut up stupid Kangaroo. Think instead of your AUKUS syndrome that will leave you without any sub in a couple of years.

France keeps playing this game where they compete saying "its not as good but you will have it sooner" vs its better but will take more time.
really hard to convince patient governments and militaries with the dopamine hit of getting it now but its not as good.
please keep it up though, it seems to be working just great. Nice job with the Ad hominem too. And the French can't figure out why they don't do better. even Europeans don't like working with France, the lack of self awareness is hilarious.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

What I notice is that India fired around fifty precision weapons against a nuclear power, and that was enough to bring it to the negotiating table.

Meanwhile, the United States has consumed nearly two-thirds of its missile stock against Iran and has ended up in such a catastrophic scenario that Rubio is doing everything he can to avoid being associated with it.

That contrast tells us far more about the effectiveness of Indian and French weapons than the usual claims that the French do nothing but lie.

 

[Spitfire6]

It was the then year cost at the time, Inflations a bit'ch and you have the current price

economics are a bit'ch:

The F-35 bid was some 2 billion Swiss francs (CHF, equalling some $2.16 billion) lower than the other bids, the statement explained. The procurement costs in Lockheed Martin’s bid also fell below the Swiss government’s top line budget for the fighter buy of CHF 6 billion ($6.5 billion) at CHF 5.068 ($5.48 billon).

5.48 + 2.16 = 7.64

7.64- 6.5 = 1.14 billion over the swiss limit (and this is assuming the Rafale was the next best price)

meaning :
* Rafale 1 billion dollars above the Swiss limit
* the F-35 has a 2 billion dollar cushion before it hits Rafale bid price

for the 2nd time the Rafale priced itself out of the swiss competition. The French cry and make pithy remarks but they have two times been to expensive for the Swiss. A detail they always "forget" to bring up. we also know that if France were to rebid the contract today the price would be even higher.

What a sad little boy

this is how winners act LOL

 

[Spitfire6]

What I notice is that India fired around fifty precision weapons against a nuclear power, and that was enough to bring it to the negotiating table.

Meanwhile, the United States has consumed nearly two-thirds of its missile stock against Iran and has ended up in such a catastrophic scenario that Rubio is doing everything he can to avoid being associated with it.

Completely ridiculous political comparisons whos outcomes have nothing to do with the tactical aircraft used. LOL by this logic Iran would capitulate if the French did an airstrike?? Ah yes the Marco Rubio factor of fighter capability. mixing politics in the performance of fighters? but the French here assure me the Rafale only loses competition because of politics?

That contrast tells us far more about the effectiveness of Indian and French weapons than the usual claims that the French do nothing but lie.

you told another whopper to prove that you don't lie. this is what i mean by lying
You have to know these are completely different scenarios but you instead tell some giant fish story about how Rafales magically create political outcomes something so absurd you must know it to be a falsehood and yet you say it anyway? Pakistan is not Iran and Sindoor is not the same as the Iran mess. Remember it was not just Rafales involved in Sindoor as it is, or was it only the rafale that had any real impact and the rest of indian air forces are just spectators? There were drones, artillery, and cyber war too. or it just "French weapons" that did it?

we have proof in this very thread of French people openly lying and yourself in just the last few pages lying about basic reporting while selling yourself as someone who worked in the industry yet were somehow absent during your entire career when it comes to basic reporting. you are either very ignorant or trying to spin a false narrative. I do not think you are this ignorant so you are spinning tall tails. you specifically mention the UK so lets look into that. The youkay is a level 1 JSF partner for 30 years, operates F-35s, builds F-35 parts, and uses F-35s in combat, and you think that have no idea how F-35s are doing until the GAO releases an unclassified safe for the public report once a year?
the point of a "cover up" is to cover up something that a group or organization wants hidden from the public. It is too late for a cover up because there are already 20 years of GAO reports that already publish the things you tell us they are trying to cover up, and even this report is going to be published anyway in a couple months. a cover up is pointless. only the French think you can rewrite history, they do it on this thread all the time. The GAO report and the reems of bad press about the F-35 don't seem to affect either because F-35 buyers are informed and kept along with all the F-35s problems. its hard for French people who want to stir the pot to understand but just because the French are only now hearing about it, does not mean it just happened. This is also why the French must lie and invent more problems about the F-35 because the known problems are not enough to keep buyers away.

 

[Spitfire6]

explain where the indian Rafale were not delivered on time, on spec, on budget.

I provided LINKS already

The rafale was found more costly.

YES. and even F-35s that cost more are still cheaper than the Rafale bid according to Swiss sources. I would love to see Dassault attempt to rebid in Switzerland at current prices. 2 times the Swiss have found the Rafale to be more costly even with F-35 overruns.

Then the bill for just 30 swiss F-35 is even higher than the 36 proposed at the beginning. A little bit easy to win a deal, isn't it?

the price of the Rafale and the amount of aircraft changed in INDIA too. the original plan was for 100+ Rafale. it changed to 36 and the price escalated. I also did the math on the Rafale for you, assuming Rafale was the 2nd place option. Dassault can go rebid the contract. by all means try again. please post the current prices if it ever happens. Why not? Rafale has only been rejected twice there. 3rd is the charm as they say

 

[Spitfire6]

It's nice to see a rational though, To the french the F-35 is indeed the tall poppy syndrome deep in their psyche, Combining this with the knowledge that they have a 40 year old fighter and no real plans for a replacement, All they can do is attack others, to reinforce their delusions of adequacy

i don't think India is even clamoring for F-35s, and they purchasing Rafales and STILL the French must come onto this forum and lie and make utterly strange arguments about the F-35? They are still not over Switzerland. celebrating 5 years of bitterness, in both Canada and Switzerland there has been clear preference for Gripens over Rafale too. its interesting as well that the French who sell "freedom" from the US and other arms restrictions are not "freeing" the Rafale source code for India? its almost like the French make bold claims that turn out to be untrue?
we both know the French have peaked with Rafale LOL they have made it such a legend in their own minds what could ever possibly replace it?

 

[Spitfire6]

What I notice is that India fired around fifty precision weapons against a nuclear power, and that was enough to bring it to the negotiating table.

Meanwhile, the United States has consumed nearly two-thirds of its missile stock against Iran and has ended up in such a catastrophic scenario that Rubio is doing everything he can to avoid being associated with it.

That contrast tells us far more about the effectiveness of Indian and French weapons than

Imagine what French weapons could do in a place like Niger

the usual claims that the French do nothing but lie.

French lies on this thread just off the top of my head:
Herciv told us the Rafale and F-35 use substandard material (nice work Dassault)
Bon plan has too many to count, but is now trying to tell us MMRCA went according to plan
pickleoil trying to tell us that French weapons create political outcomes and that delayed reports that are still going to be released anyway are evidence of a cover up.
and you dont "do nothing but lie." you also crack really bad jokes, make bad arguements, ridiculous leaps of logic, act smug, brag, write fan fiction, whine, and support each other with reactions and laughing responses to everyone who calls out your fraudulent claims and remind everyone of cancer and why its important to get screened and tested.
I've said it before pickle; Beating the F-35 should be really easy, but the French find ways to make an absolute mess of things all while being allergic to factual statements.

why does herciv have to convince us that Dassault doesn't know how to make airplanes in order to "get one over" on the F-35? how often has herciv shot his mouth off on some crazy theory backed by the French cohort?

 

[Spitfire6]

The F-35 can't fly too fast or too low, otherwise the nose heats up too much for the PMMA.

The lucky thing about the Rafale is that it has a two-part canopy. And the part most affected by the heat is the smaller one.

The other advantage is that the SCORPION is not indispensable to the pilot. He can carry out all his missions without the SCORPION. This is not the case with the HMDS, which is indispensable whatever the mission.

I've demonstrated factually that the visor has an effect on the F-35's flight envelope, especially during supersonic flight.

I've also given some clues as to why the Rafale, although affected by the same phenomenon, is less sensitive to it.

pickleoil, we both know that herciv is prone to letting his imagination run wild and then falling for his own delusions. This was the post where he informed us that the F-35 and Rafale use commercial grade PMMA in fighter aircraft canopies. Something that would never be done, and has not been done even back in the era of F-4 phantoms. Bonplan agreed with this invented narrative.

This was a lie. a giant fat invented story that I debunked extensively using facts and sources. Herciv has learned nothing from his mistake and is incapable of shame.

be careful the company you keep. you could be the most honest and credible person in the world (we both know you are not, but play along) but if you continue to hand out and encourage fanatical and non-credible people who invent stories and pick the stupidist fights imaginable and then lose them, myself and others will eventually conclude that you are not credible people and that your entire reason for participating in this forum is to make false and bad faith arguements that destroy actual discussion in favor of garbage-tier French propoganda. The F-35 is not French. nor is the F-22.
This thread would be better if you quit shitting it up by unzipping your fly pulling your Rafale out, only to find out that it doesn't measure up yet again and then starting an arguement in the most shameless way imaginable.
you are the least offensive French poster here as you are only relatively dishonest, and I want to like you but your "friends" are killing you. and if I didn't know any better I would think they were deliberate trolls to make the French and the Rafale look ridiculous. bonplan has been backed into such a corner we have to talk about nuclear reactors and AUKUS.

you are smart person? do you not see?

 

[Spitfire6]

Greece purchased 24 Rafale and only 20 F-35 (note that they purchased more F16 than M2000, for a good reason : until the RDY radar, the ones of M2000 were not on par with F16. Greece always used 2 sources, and purchased more numbers of the best).

Greece has more F-16s than Rafales

 

[Optimist]

I don't normally post what I read on other forums, but this one says it all, It was about the UK/LP GCAP, Something that is eating them to the bone with jealousy and so they need to attack it,
The French has no mirror to themselves, The UK is stuck in the 80's and forget everything they did on the f-35, Yet it's not an issue for France, who hasn't developed a fighter for 40+ years,
a nice sour grape, it's good that we just have the Rafale and not that 6th gen rubbish

Connexion - AIR-DEFENSE.NET

forum.air-defense.net

"I also believe this is a "waiting for Daddy's proposals on the F-47 export" project, because the reality is that none of the protagonists have the necessary building blocks to advance their technology.

Given that the technological leap from the 80s to 2026 is too significant and fragmented, and given that they currently have more interests in the F35 and earn more while owning nothing, the BEs need to be kept busy .

The Rafale does not have this problem"

The world is rubbish now

They also are happy for BAE

https://twitter.com/x/status/2079857840127172783

 

[Spitfire6]

I don't normally post what I read on other forums, but this one says it all, It was about the UK/LP GCAP, Something that is eating them to the bone with jealousy and so they need to attack it,
The French has no mirror to themselves, The UK is stuck in the 80's and forget everything they did on the f-35, Yet it's not an issue for France, who hasn't developed a fighter for 40+ years,
a nice sour grape, it's good that we just have the Rafale and not that 6th gen rubbish

Connexion - AIR-DEFENSE.NET

forum.air-defense.net

"I also believe this is a "waiting for Daddy's proposals on the F-47 export" project, because the reality is that none of the protagonists have the necessary building blocks to advance their technology.

Given that the technological leap from the 80s to 2026 is too significant and fragmented, and given that they currently have more interests in the F35 and earn more while owning nothing, the BEs need to be kept busy .

The Rafale does not have this problem"

The world is rubbish now

They also are happy for BAE

https://twitter.com/x/status/2079857840127172783

they can tell they are being left behind. they broke up and their Ex is already dating again LOL

 

[Optimist]

I wanted you to be my SCAF girlfriend and have your dad pay

Germany and Sweden are exploring a partnership on next-generation combat aviation following the collapse of the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program.

 

[Spitfire6]

I wanted you to be my SCAF girlfriend and have your dad pay

Germany and Sweden are exploring a partnership on next-generation combat aviation following the collapse of the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program.
View attachment 53118

All smiles

The Swiss get a better deal:

Swiss firms set to win more F-35 work than expected

Switzerland's purchase of F-35 fighter jets is expected to generate more business for Swiss companies than originally required, reported RTS. Under the procurement deal, the American manufacturer has

lenews.ch

 

[Optimist]

Big smiles here, too, but no monogamy, They still want to bed Sweden

Germany will receive its first F-35 fighter from the United States in September, bearing German identification markings, and will begin training personnel to operate it.

This was announced during a speech at ILA Berlin 2026 by Boris Pistorius, Germany’s Minister of Defence.