LRShM is not stategic tech............................... its conventional stuff that will be used in any normal conflict such as one with pak. Sub 500 is the upcoming brahmos NG, NASM MR, the SLCM for 500 kms range, the LRLACM for 1500kms range. LRLACM can be converted to anti ship as well if im not wrong.
LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
- Thread starter Schwifty
- Start date
I think we can all agree on the fact that Korea simply has better a project management and procurement system, also a wider pool of talent and funds that allows rapid design, prototype, and testing cycle, even as projects in India languish. It's only the sheer willpower that sees half the projects through in India. Also, a majority of Indian defence projects are a masterclass in how-to-not-manage-a-project.
Also the reason Korea, which started after India in BMD, is in the process of deploying systems similar to what AD-2 would be. This is the scale of lethargy in India. Similar fate in cruise missile development, and a host of tactical stuff. Frankly, i don't see any reason why S. Korea would be behind India even in strategic system, it's just USA holding them back in long range BM and nuclear arena.
You can't compete with a country that spends more money than you in research and human resources development.
Also the reason Korea, which started after India in BMD, is in the process of deploying systems similar to what AD-2 would be. This is the scale of lethargy in India. Similar fate in cruise missile development, and a host of tactical stuff. Frankly, i don't see any reason why S. Korea would be behind India even in strategic system, it's just USA holding them back in long range BM and nuclear arena.
You can't compete with a country that spends more money than you in research and human resources development.
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Korean L-SAM II is nowhere near deployment LoL, the approval for it's development came in 2023.
Also L-SAM II is equivalent to that of AD-1, not AD-2, and AD-1 was successfully flight tested in 2022.
Also, India's BMD program comes directly under the purview of the PMO, just like the ATV program, there is no dearth of funds there.
Their piecemeal technological advantages in these areas are meaningless to wider strategic calculus. Tanks, aircraft are all tactical and used within the constraints of each others' environments. For example the Turkish Altay is SoKo's K2, and neither of the tanks will perform as well as the T-90 within the constraints of the subcontinent.
Neither the South Koreans nor Turks have our BMD programs. SoKo is instead planning on developing one ever since the US pulled THAAD from their country. They are still developing their equivalent of PDV, while their overall BMD infra is still dependent on the US. Turkey's BMD is likely not even in the planning stage. We even have ASATS.
A lot of missile technologies that have impressed you out of South Korea is just stuff supplied by Russia, like KM-SAM and Brahmos-derivative. And in other areas, even in aircraft systems, they are behind India. External assistance has helped them bring their stuff to operational maturity faster, it means they don't fully have capabilities of their own yet.
Turkey is behind SoKo, never mind India.
What's this about VSHORADS and drones? All these are 2 or 3 year long programs. The real differences we have are capabilities that takes decades to develop.
With the exception of shipbuilding, we outproduce South Korea everywhere else.
You have been reading too much anti-India propaganda to the point minor achievements of others elsewhere has been impressing you.
India is a direct technological peer of Europe and only behind the US and China.
AETD had little to do with 6th gen for P&W, all P&W developed was the fan stage. ADVENT + AETD was much larger for GE. By the end of it, GE had a real engine, P&W did not. GE's contract was $1B, P&W's was less than $500M. P&W had a separate path for 6th gen, which came via AETP and NGAP.
Once foundational technology was developed, it took just a year to finish developing and testing F135 with VCE. In our case, we will have 5-7 or even 10 years to develop the fan stage, stick it on non-adaptive engine to make it adaptive, while the non-adaptive engine will be developed in 3 years after contract is signed. Ours is a combined 5/6th program, whereas American programs are dedicated 6th gen, with their own timelines independent from how they went about developing 5th (80s-2000s) and 6th gen (2000s-20s) compared to what we are doing (2020s-30s for both), 4 decades vs 1 decade.
All official programs begin after foundational technologies are developed. So P&W began theirs in 2016 compared to GE's 2012.
We have far more time than that. Our engine program will last 12 years, split between 120 kN and 140 kN.
Once foundational technology was developed, it took just a year to finish developing and testing F135 with VCE. In our case, we will have 5-7 or even 10 years to develop the fan stage, stick it on non-adaptive engine to make it adaptive, while the non-adaptive engine will be developed in 3 years after contract is signed. Ours is a combined 5/6th program, whereas American programs are dedicated 6th gen, with their own timelines independent from how they went about developing 5th (80s-2000s) and 6th gen (2000s-20s) compared to what we are doing (2020s-30s for both), 4 decades vs 1 decade.
All official programs begin after foundational technologies are developed. So P&W began theirs in 2016 compared to GE's 2012.
We have far more time than that. Our engine program will last 12 years, split between 120 kN and 140 kN.
They work with a lot of foreign assistance to stick to schedule. While definitely superior in terms of time management compared to India, it's a straight path for them, with the Americans and Europeans constantly holding their hands. For example, the Italians are gonna test their radar. The CIT will be British. The primary weapons will be European. Pretty much all the cockpit technologies, canopy, life support, OBOGS etc, are American, the MFDs are British. Elbit will provide GCAS and helmet. Refueling system is British.
Elta was initially involved in the development of the radar, it's primarily an indigenous effort, although they are cutting down development time with European help. The Koreans claim the EW suite is 77% Korean.
Essentially, only the airframe is Korean, even though it was designed with LM's assistance. Overall the aircraft is 65% indigenous.
If they actually chased after indigenization, they will take longer than India. We developed all of the above via LCA Mk1 itself.
Valid points. There is lots to be done and many areas are in need of improvement.
On another note:
We can talk about strategic missiles they have their own ICBMs flying over the Sea of Japan. Till then....
It's not a day 1 weapon neither is a week one weapon. The Brahmos only started getting used by 9th-10th May itself that too as a response to fatah-2 used by the Pakistanis. The LRAShM won't be wasted on the Pakistanis. It's specifically made to target PLAN ships primarily. The Pakistani navy can be handled by standard Brahmos itself. It's way above in the escalation ladder.
We will be a technological peer of Europe when we have a fully Indian made 4.5 gen aircraft with supercruise capability, 12k+ km ICBM and ability to produce Marine turbine engines along with LHD's and Aircraft carriers completely.
The South Koreans are closer tech peer to Europeans in terms of tactical terms.
Interesting thing is if you unite both Korea's, they have ICBM's far outranging with much larger payloads than the Agni-V(or the predicted ranges of Agni-6, Surya) and functional HGV's. The South Koreans have an air force with functional fifth gen aircraft as well as decent chunk of their navy outsize our mainline ships. The k-2 are designed for mountain warfare(altay is just another Arjun operationally) and they have a huge chunk of mobile artillery. The North Koreans actually outdo us in rocket artillery and tactical ballistic missiles.
What's crazy is judging the difference between industrial output of both China and India, the gap between squadron strength will only increase not decrease but we will be able to closen up the technological gap between both. That's the best we can hope for, we should have the technological capability to deter such an attack from China like Pakistan tries to do with a smaller AF than us.
Both Korea and Japan are technological powerhouses, if these countries are to invest heavy on R&d and defence, these results are not the least surprising.
It would take us a few decades for us to match these countries on overall tech even if we are ahead in some strategic tech.
So , the supposed internal fuel capacity of tejas mk2 is 3.3tonn. While tejas mk1a(internal +external which its alwys used) is over 5 tonn
So let be direct, the modern warfare requires lots of bvr as well as fuel capacity to stay in fight
Now tell me, why not drdo while completely redesigning tejas mk1a into mk2 , why dont they increased fuel capacity to over 5 tonn ? Ef typhoon, a 1980s design has 5 tonn fuel
Here is my post from Other forum:
#825
Opinion:
What: The current expected internal fuel capacity designed by ada was a foolish decision, they should have opted for over 5 tonn of internal fuel capacity (like rafale, and even rafale needs cft and droppable fuel tank)
How ?: there is very large volume between spine and wings of tejas mk2 , so insted of keeping that for aerodynamic. They should have made it bulky and eadily over 1.5-2 tonn of additional fuel can be added(like cft position in f16 but far less aerodynamic cost due to much better blending )
Why ? : menurabality now matter less and less with over 100km effective/no escape zone range of bvr missile, but fuel matter special since more no bvrs required or heavy ground launched missiles are needed
---> and no , 2 engine dont consume 2x fuel, fuel consumption depends upon required thrust
Tejas mk1a biggest issue is small internal fuel so it fly with 2 external fuel always , so why not atleast aim for that combined fuel of tejas mk1a for internal of tejas mk2 ??
Indian designers are stupid, desigining a 4.5 gen jet in 2010, but with just 3.3tonn of fuel ??
, and now tejas mk2 will awys need atleast 2 drop tank for any meaningful use for offensive ops
--> hope that they are aiming for over 10k tonn fuel capacity for amca(as amca will come when even europr will be inducting their indigenous 6th gen with massive fuel capacity)
So let be direct, the modern warfare requires lots of bvr as well as fuel capacity to stay in fight
Now tell me, why not drdo while completely redesigning tejas mk1a into mk2 , why dont they increased fuel capacity to over 5 tonn ? Ef typhoon, a 1980s design has 5 tonn fuel
Here is my post from Other forum:
#825
Opinion:
What: The current expected internal fuel capacity designed by ada was a foolish decision, they should have opted for over 5 tonn of internal fuel capacity (like rafale, and even rafale needs cft and droppable fuel tank)
How ?: there is very large volume between spine and wings of tejas mk2 , so insted of keeping that for aerodynamic. They should have made it bulky and eadily over 1.5-2 tonn of additional fuel can be added(like cft position in f16 but far less aerodynamic cost due to much better blending )
Why ? : menurabality now matter less and less with over 100km effective/no escape zone range of bvr missile, but fuel matter special since more no bvrs required or heavy ground launched missiles are needed
---> and no , 2 engine dont consume 2x fuel, fuel consumption depends upon required thrust
Tejas mk1a biggest issue is small internal fuel so it fly with 2 external fuel always , so why not atleast aim for that combined fuel of tejas mk1a for internal of tejas mk2 ??
Indian designers are stupid, desigining a 4.5 gen jet in 2010, but with just 3.3tonn of fuel ??
, and now tejas mk2 will awys need atleast 2 drop tank for any meaningful use for offensive ops--> hope that they are aiming for over 10k tonn fuel capacity for amca(as amca will come when even europr will be inducting their indigenous 6th gen with massive fuel capacity)
The lack of development of the Kaveri has forced us into a spot where we will have to focus on drones and missiles like Iran to cope with the huge asymmetry we face against the Chinese. The problem is China is far ahead in terms of drones, rocket artillery and missiles in total numbers and quality as well.
We didn't even have any foresight to use the al-31 to develop aircrafts or even the rd-33. Instead we are stuck with the dated ge-404 which we can't produce or license manufacture. It's the same problem with the ka-501 problem experienced with the Arjun. A dated engine which is not being manufactured in house.
The EF is a twin engined fighter. The MK2 is in the same performance league the gripe E and f-16 blk 70. There is nothing wrong with the design at most they can increase the fuel capacity by +10-15%.
Off late ever since I started the thread on the Indo China War Game trying to chart out various scenarios & their outcomes , nearly all of which see us at either a disadvantage or massive disadvantage (due to reasons already gotten into , hence I won't spend much time dwelling on it ) I've come to the conclusion not only do our ruling classes ( govt , baboodumb , the armed forces , political parties across the spectrum , academia , intelligentsia etc ) deserve a huge kick up their collective rears , so does the majority community.
For we're about to face an existential threat we never did in the darkest of hours what with the destructive invasions we've faced all through the last millenium which for want of a better phrase has completely ruined our perspective worldview & our way of life.
Enter Gandhianism & Nehruvianism two extremely perverted ideologies which has further lulled our senses , our sense of who & what we are & our priorities. This massive kick the Chinese are supposed to administer us will be a timely one.
How fast we recover from the initial setback & take the war to the Chinese will determine how will we fare against the Islamic hordes without but more importantly within after we're done with the Chinese. Keep in mind the rapidly deteriorating positions of not just Paxtan but also BD along with rapid changes in the religious demographics of at least 3 states - Assam , WB & Al Geralam. Also add to that the rapidly falling TFR of Hindus not only in these regions but across India but the above replacement TFRs of the peacefuls across India bar none except Kashmir.
To quote JSD we've lost our Kshatra spirit thanks to all the aforementioned developments and more , which has been replaced with baniagiri where Dhandho Parmo Dharmo has become the norm . Not only do we see nothing wrong in it , we've internalised it to such an extent , anyone with dissenting or with an alternative view is dubbed a Hindutva wadi , since this maxim is now what defines us & our worldview.
Also to this I'd add the pernicious effects Shramana Sampradayas have had on our thinking & philosophy where Karma > Dharma as opposed to Dharma > Karma which has always been the cornerstone of our religion & religious scriptures .
It's telling Gandhi had the Bhagavad Geeta read at his all religion prayer sessions right though his political career & when partition was inevitable chose to decide on the basis of Karma instead of Dharma.This wasn't because he didn't understand what was the central theme of the Mahabharata & the Bhagavad Geeta but because in his world view Karma > Dharma.
Result we didn't have an exchange of populations nor did partition bring about peace in the neighborhood which should've automatically birthed the question - why did we have the partition then ?
Instead the discourse around it is still permeated with wishful thinking , emotions , etc without addressing the underlying issue namely - Islam & it's nature which exactly mimics that of an invasive species like all 4 Abrahamic faiths viz Judaism , Christianity Islam & Marxism along with the various churches it has spawned of which wokeism is the latest incarnation except Judaism is not a proselytizing faith.
Hence I see this kick to our collective rears as being extremely essential if we're to develop & hone our survival instincts which is absolutely needed in our existential war against Islam ahead.
Anyway that was OT but I needed to get it out of my system.
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You are looking at one or two areas. That's not enough. If you don't have space and nuclear capabilities, you are not a peer or near-peer of India.
India is peer with Europe because we have advanced satellite launch capabilities, space-based navigation and communication systems, nuclear weapons and their deliver systems, SSNs, SSBNs etc. Let me know how long SoKo or Turkey will take to develop these relative to us developing a supercruise capable aircraft. We will have a supercruise-capable 5th gen jet flying in 3 years, when will they get their GSLV?
As it stands today, we can obliterate both SoKo and Turkey at the same time in a matter of minutes.
NoKo just got their tech from China, who in turn got it from the Soviets.
The rest don't matter to the larger strategic calculus.
It's pointless to combine the two 'cause they developed all their tech for different reasons.
It's like claiming Germany will become a nuclear power and get a P5 seat if they are combined with France.
If India is combined with Pakistan, we get all the stuff we have, double our nukes, and get a massive international terrorist network and some insane debt. You can see how silly the point you made is.
So , the supposed internal fuel capacity of tejas mk2 is 3.3tonn. While tejas mk1a(internal +external which its alwys used) is over 5 tonn
So let be direct, the modern warfare requires lots of bvr as well as fuel capacity to stay in fight
Now tell me, why not drdo while completely redesigning tejas mk1a into mk2 , why dont they increased fuel capacity to over 5 tonn ? Ef typhoon, a 1980s design has 5 tonn fuel
Here is my post from Other forum:
#825
Opinion:
What: The current expected internal fuel capacity designed by ada was a foolish decision, they should have opted for over 5 tonn of internal fuel capacity (like rafale, and even rafale needs cft and droppable fuel tank)
How ?: there is very large volume between spine and wings of tejas mk2 , so insted of keeping that for aerodynamic. They should have made it bulky and eadily over 1.5-2 tonn of additional fuel can be added(like cft position in f16 but far less aerodynamic cost due to much better blending )
Why ? : menurabality now matter less and less with over 100km effective/no escape zone range of bvr missile, but fuel matter special since more no bvrs required or heavy ground launched missiles are needed
---> and no , 2 engine dont consume 2x fuel, fuel consumption depends upon required thrust
Tejas mk1a biggest issue is small internal fuel so it fly with 2 external fuel always , so why not atleast aim for that combined fuel of tejas mk1a for internal of tejas mk2 ??
Indian designers are stupid, desigining a 4.5 gen jet in 2010, but with just 3.3tonn of fuel ??
--> hope that they are aiming for over 10k tonn fuel capacity for amca(as amca will come when even europr will be inducting their indigenous 6th gen with massive fuel capacity)
As percentage of fuel to body weight, ie, fuel fraction, both LCA Mk2 and Typhoon have the same fuel fraction. Tyhoon is twice the size of LCA Mk2, so the Typhoon carries less fuel for its size.
With internal fuel alone, LCA Mk2 will have a range of 2500 km, which is just 500 km less than Su-30.
Abd u know any real info about the projected fuel capacity of amca ? J35 and f35 both got over 8 tonn
Hopes that atleast we are getting 8 tonn ,and preferably over 10 ton.
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AL-31FP and RD-33 are insufficient. And manufacturing F404 wouldn't have helped either. All these are 4th gen engines. Successful development of Kaveri also wouldn't have done anything beyond sticking an immature, underpowered 4th gen engine on LCAs in the 2010s, necessitating the need for F404 in any case. It wouldn't have powered LCA Mk2 or AMCA.
Kaveri is going on drones, so nothing's changed there.
Where we slipped up is delaying the Rafale deal to 2030 instead of just expanding it to 90 more jets before 2020. We would have been halfway done by now. LCA Mk2 and AMCA timeframes are fine for the technologies being brought in.
And we don't have suffucient drones and missiles to face China today. Our primary means are still via fighters. We will have fighters in enough numbers before we get sufficient drones and missiles. Ghatak will take a decade before it's operational, and we need a decade of Pralay, LR-LACM, and Brahmos-M production before we have sufficient mass, some haven't even begun. Same with ALBMs, we need time to achieve mass. By then, we will have all 900+ fighters operational.
We don't know the specs of J-35 yet. Only rumors.
F-35 was designed as a strike jet, it needs more fuel. In exchange it loses performance. For ASF designs, you need a balance between fuel and performance. AMCA has been designed to perform better than the F-35, but still carries more fuel as percentage of its weight compared to the F-22 while being equal or better in performance. 35% of AMCA's weight is fuel compared to 29% of the F-22's. F-35's is almost 40%. Absolute number doesn't tell you anything.
Su-30MKI's is 34%, that's less than AMCA. It means AMCA will outrange Su-30MKI quite comfortably, while LCA Mk2 at 33% will come very close to matching it, or will likely match it 'cause of more fuel efficient engines.
For ASFs today, 33-35% is the best you can get. Anything more is merely the result of more refinement of the airframe, like Su-35's 38%, or the aircraft is just fat, like the F-35. LCA Mk1/A and Typhoon are at 30%. Rafale is 33%, same as LCA Mk2.
J-35 is likely to be 33-35% too. Carrier jets are heavier and need more fuel. TEDBF will be at 33% with 7T of fuel. So J-35 could also be at 33-34% with 8T of fuel.
Lol, no. I don't even know what forum you are talking about.
Okh, fine. Hope that we eventually develope something like j36 which can carry lots of fuel and also heavy weapon on internal fuel( hope that they make amca mk3 insted of joining fcas in which the french wont give any critical tech to us.
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