Likewise peace is also necessary for war. Recall how cold war was crucial for world war. That's why IA is peaceful currently.
Military Mediocrity - Who Will Bell the Cat?
- Thread starter Saaho
- Start date
Pakistan has nuclear weapons... sitting abroad giving lecture is easy when bomb fly we all know who's going to fight and die .... china is 3 times your country size with similar population...meaning more resource availablity. It border 4 highly developed countries directly for trade with 3 having same Mongolian race people unlike India. It's in bed with jihadan who will pounce on you the movement she see an opertunity.
India is not as weak as you portray and china is not that strong. Being strong doesn't mean you go to war to satisfy jingoistic crowd back home and abroad .... PPP is good only if you can produce high quality stuff on your own like Soviet Union used to do or modern day russia.... for buying rafale you need to convert those rupee to euro or dollar.
So? India has nuclear weapons too. Why is only India scared of nuclear weapons. India has anti-ballistic missile shield to boot.
And lets not even go to that escalation point.
In Feb 2019, there were no nuclear weapons but neither our bombs hit the target nor our AWACS were able to fight the electronic war front (we had to RUSH to buy israeli comm equipment JUST after that, thats proof enough), our highly trained folks shot down our own heli because of operational mistakes AND we sent a 1957-era jet to fight enemy's top line fighter (did I mention that enemy was 10 times smaller than we are?).
This dear has nothing to do with finanace OR nuclear weapons but pure incompetence and not doing due diligence on the part of our leadership including leadership of our forces. Exactly what that article is talking about.
My home is less than 1 kilometer from Maharajpura airbase if it helps you. Yes, I used to see mirages flying day in and day out. If it helps, I know WC Abhinandan on a first name basis. If a nuke is going to hit anywhere in India, my family will certainly be in the line of fire.
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India is incompetent. Fullstop. A country with a rich but incompetent leadership and poor people.
No dear, PPP is useful when your expenses is mostly in your own country and not externalized. Like your own health care. A cardiologist in appointment Canada costs 200-300 dollar thats 10-15K INR. Go to Mangeshkar Hospital in Mumbai or Nephrology in Asopa Agara, you will get the best cardiologists and nephrologist with great experience giving appointments for less than 1000 INR.
Indian defence has most of its expenses in form of salaries and pensions, so PPP is very apt.
Indeed! A country which is only involved in war becomes Afghanistan. Its analogous to workout and rest. Certainly rest is important to recover but without workout you won't have tears in muscle to recover and grow. As I said before, the art is usually to keep the wars away from your home and use them to find your deficiencies and fix them.
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*Ahem* Two words, Inflation adjustment. Besides, you are not fighting USA of 2020 or even Nazi Warmact of 1938. You are fighting Pakistan for most of your weapons practice. A country one tenth of our size. Or if you are fighting globally across the world with say "allied forces" then it will be likes of syria etc. None too strong. But it will help you to keep your powder dry and test your Generals for real aptitude for war.
*Ahem* again Two words, Inflation adjustment.
If you are comparing across countries GDP PPP is always better.
If you are comparing across time, Real GDP should be used.
Even the document from Maddison project says the same.
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cgdppc Real GDP per capita in 2011US$, multiple benchmarks (suitable for cross-country income comparisons)
Lets see some facts around where the expenses go for defence in India.
The two heads you mentioned, captial expenses and fuel expense, let see them: (Taking year 2014 because I have data for that year)
Fuel Expenses : 7000 Carore INR on petroleum products equals 1.076 billion dollars (actual crude import will be lesser because this amount includes refining cost and profit as well, which is done in India)
Defence Ministry diktat on cutting fuel use by 40% stumps armed forces
The defence ministry has asked the armed forces to reduce fuel use by 20-40% as the sharp increase in prices has upset budget calculations.economictimes.indiatimes.com
Arms Import in 2014: 3.3 billion dollars (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=IN) And this was one of the higher import bill years.
Total Arms + fuel = 4.3 billion dollars.
Total defense budget of India in 2014 50.91 billion dollars (India Military Spending/Defense Budget 1960-2020)
Clearly, most of India's defence expenses go in India itself. Hence, PPP is VERY apt. Sorry dude, facts are not in your favor.
Haha. So I guess oil is 3.5 times more expensive in the US than it is in India. Okay.
How about, it does not matter?
Indian forces consumes only 7000 Cr worth of petroleum products or measly 1 billion dollar. Indian defence budget in 2014 was 51 billion dollar. Not even 2% of defence budget goes in oil.
On the contrary, for US to employ 1 million active duty personnels, the budget is 143 billion dollars for JUST salaries (Military budget of the United States - Wikipedia). Thats about 5 times what India spends on salary AND pensions. See? Why PPP matters?
Note : Oil will be cheaper than 1 billion dollar because petroleum products includes cost of refining and profits of importer, refiner and supplier as well. It won't be added to our import bill.
For being factual you seem to be pretty averse to facts.
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You didn't get what I said, even after pointing it out, so forget it.
We are where the US was during WW1, not WW2.
Prove it. Oil being expensive in India does not matter in over all military spending because oil is a very small component of our military expenditure. Compare with salaries to see where the real difference comes from.
Its not that hard.
On the contrary, for US to employ 1 million active duty personnels, the budget is 143 billion dollars for JUST salaries (Military budget of the United States - Wikipedia). Thats about 5 times what India spends on salary AND pensions. See? Why PPP matters?
Prove it. For all the hoo haa there is not one single shred of hard data fact that you have brought on table dude.
From the looks of it, your belief in the Indian government's poverty is more of a religious belief than the one based on facts.
There is a high chance allied nations will go to war with china in SCS and IOR Or Xi ccp might collapse before Indians even make up their mind to settle pok.
You don't know US history. The US achieved a $9000 per capita only in 1920 or so, and lost it all in the Great Depression and regained their $9000 per capita again back during WW2.
We are in the region of where the US was back in the 1910-20s or so, the same where China was back in the mid-2000s. In other words, we are where China was around the mid-2000s.
We are nowhere near what one would call us rich even by 1920s standards in the US since our per capita income is $2000, not $9000.
I'd say we are ready to fight wars with countries like China when we start approaching a per capita income of $8000-10000, not today at $2000. Your desperate attempt at giving equivalence with a 1940s America has been noted, but it's completely wrong.
As a benchmark, you can say that India has to defeat absolute poverty first before going to war with great powers. At the very least, we need to bring it down to very low single digits. And that's 2030 at the earliest.
As for that oil thing, forget it, if you didn't get it the first time, then you won't get the second time, and I don't wanna go in circles, which is why I am ignoring everything you have said regarding that and everything else. I'm engaging with you on the topic of per capita because you have at least brought something to the table instead of conspiracy theories.
Lol, yeah. I definitely agree with that.
But the problem is if the US and allies fight China, we will be expected to contribute. And the problem for us will be Pakistan again. We, and the allies, can't afford China having another country as a political/military ally during war, especially one with nuclear weapons, they already have North Korea. And with Pakistan taking action, so will Iran (on China's side), which will bring in Israel and the GCC, and in turn Turkey, and that will eventually turn into a world war.
Taking Pakistan out before dealing with China will solve a lot of problems even for the allies. At the very least we need to take back PoK and cut off Chinese access to Pakistan over land, and hopefully the West will give us their support.
Oooh la la! Finally some figures. Lets see. 9800 per capita x 130 million = how much?
And now see Indian right now, 7000 per capita multiply by 1300 million = how much?
You see, unlike social parameters, military might is function of economic size of ENTIRE country not per capita. For instance, do you believe Luxumberg is more powerful than China? China's per capita economy is NOTHING in front of Luxumberg. I will say not.
Indian economy and hence its government revenue (and POTENTIAL revenue Indian government can draw upon in war time) is WAY WAY WAY higher than US economy in 1938.
As I said, Indian government is not poor, Indians are poor.
Lets see, do you believe Qatar is ready to fight China? After all its per capita GDP is in around 100K. I will say not. Its the over all size that matters.
Everything said and done we are indeed ready to fight wars in Pakistan or middle east (together with allied nations, of course). It will keep our military fighting fit and we will not be in a situation where we find that our generals forgot to fill up war stores.
The fact that our military needs emergency purchases even after a day of conflict with Pakistan reflects that our fighting forces are impotent. And surely its not the money that is at the root of it this time.
You are confused with a country having rich citizens with a country having rich government.
India is a nation of a rich government but poor people. Its government is rich simply because it has a massive economy to draw money from. Average individual are not exactly rich but mostly poor.
Yeah, you don't know the difference between relative and absolute.
Relative to who? Would you say India is rich compared to China?
Oh?
Relative to what? Pakistan? Come on!
Relative to what? Nepal? Come on!
Relative to what seriously?
We have not been even fighting Pakistan properly and these days Nepal is successfully challenging us and our government is keen to surrender there too.
Why the heck is it that Pakistan flies more AWACS than us? Better platforms than us? They have better rifles than us? Why is it that China does salami slicing of our land but we don't do same with PoK?
Its just one simple thing : Indian leaders (including military leaders) are incompetent. We tolerate incompetent military leaders because we don't put them to a use ie war. And that has nothing to do with money. Not when we have third largest defence budget.
Would you say India is rich compared to China?
According to you India's per capita is $9000. And we know China's is $21000. So would you say China is merely 2.33 times richer than India.